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Next: digital vs. film prints prices
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Since: Sep 13, 2003 Posts: 11
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 8:32 am
Post subject: traditional vs. digital Archived from groups: rec>photo>darkroom (more info?)
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I was directed to an interesting article by Bruce Barnbaum on
traditional vs. digital fine art photography: on his website at
www.barnbaum.com, followed by "Thoughts on digital photography". I am
interested in reaction to his final statement in this article: "Nothing
has the radiance of a finely crafted silver print. Nothing."
I'm not asking for a critique of BB's work, but rather for a comparison
of a fine traditional black and white 16x20 print with the same size
generated digitally. I saw such a digital print about four years ago
and did not find it as "radiant" as a darkroom print, but that's a long
time ago in the digital world. Where does this comparison stand today?
Art >> Stay informed about: traditional vs. digital |
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Since: Feb 08, 2005 Posts: 722
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 10:38 am
Post subject: Re: traditional vs. digital [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Art Reitsch wrote:
> I was directed to an interesting article by Bruce Barnbaum on
> traditional vs. digital fine art photography: on his website at
> <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.barnbaum.com," target="_blank">www.barnbaum.com,</a> followed by "Thoughts on digital photography". I
am
> interested in reaction to his final statement in this article:
"Nothing
> has the radiance of a finely crafted silver print. Nothing."
> I'm not asking for a critique of BB's work, but rather for a
comparison
> of a fine traditional black and white 16x20 print with the same size
> generated digitally. I saw such a digital print about four years ago
> and did not find it as "radiant" as a darkroom print, but that's a
long
> time ago in the digital world. Where does this comparison stand
today?
> Art
Currently I don't believe there is a digital camera that can match a
really good film print at 16 x 20. This is not to say that the digital
print will not look good but a print from a 4 x 5 camera printed at 16
x 20 will look better. Some of the scanning backs are getting close
but to really look sharp a digital photo needs to be printed at 300
dpi, this would require almost 30 MP from a digital camera.
Now if we scan that same 4 x 5 film the question become can it match a
print made from an enlarger. This is not an easy question since the
papers used for digital printing and optical printing are very
different. There are a wide array of printing paper available, some at
a very high cost, that will give a wide range of effects. I have heard
that the prints made of some of the metal like papers can be very
stunning, but would not look like a optical print. But as to which one
was more "radiant", I doubt you could ever get good agreement on this.
>From reading his piece I do think Barnbaum made some pretty odd
statements. He seemed pretty upset about the idea that when using
Photoshop you can work on a photo as you have time. He tried to make
it sound like this was a bad thing, that no great work of art could be
done at ones convenience, Michelangelo seems to have done pretty good
even though he took his time.
Scott<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: traditional vs. digital |
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Since: Mar 09, 2004 Posts: 78
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 12:08 pm
Post subject: Re: traditional vs. digital [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Art Reitsch wrote:
> I was directed to an interesting article by Bruce Barnbaum on
> traditional vs. digital fine art photography: on his website at
> <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.barnbaum.com," target="_blank">www.barnbaum.com,</a> followed by "Thoughts on digital photography". I am
> interested in reaction to his final statement in this article: "Nothing
> has the radiance of a finely crafted silver print. Nothing."
> I'm not asking for a critique of BB's work, but rather for a comparison
> of a fine traditional black and white 16x20 print with the same size
> generated digitally. I saw such a digital print about four years ago
> and did not find it as "radiant" as a darkroom print, but that's a long
> time ago in the digital world. Where does this comparison stand today?
> Art
>
The consensus of people here: silver gelatin is unmatched. The consensus
of people in digital newsgroups: digital can be better. It's unlikely
that such a question will get any useful reponses, and it's likely to
cause a huge expulsion of hot air which will waste everyone's time. The
only way to really get the answer you're looking for, if in fact you're
not just trolling, is to find examples of the best digital prints and
compare them to the best examples of silver gelatin prints and see for
yourself.
-Peter De Smidt
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.desmidt.net" target="_blank">www.desmidt.net</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: traditional vs. digital |
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Since: Jan 01, 2005 Posts: 51
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(Msg. 4) Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 5:09 pm
Post subject: Re: traditional vs. digital [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Friday 15 April 2005 08:32, Art Reitsch wrote:
> I was directed to an interesting article by Bruce Barnbaum on
> traditional vs. digital fine art photography: on his website at
> <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.barnbaum.com," target="_blank">www.barnbaum.com,</a> followed by "Thoughts on digital photography". I am
> interested in reaction to his final statement in this article:
> "Nothing
> has the radiance of a finely crafted silver print. Nothing."
> I'm not asking for a critique of BB's work, but rather for a
> comparison of a fine traditional black and white 16x20 print with the
> same size
> generated digitally. I saw such a digital print about four years ago
> and did not find it as "radiant" as a darkroom print, but that's a
> long
> time ago in the digital world. Where does this comparison stand
> today? Art
Silver gelatin prints are still superior. Platinum and Palladium prints
are superior to even the best silver ones. Film photography is still
superior to digital. There's just more information at higher
resolutions with film than with digital with no interpolating needed to
get a "complete" image. That makes a big difference in print quality.
Plus, most digital prints, b&w or color, are frequency modulated,
halftones using only a few colors or greytones, plus black. And
halftones are inferior to continuous tone prints.
--
Stefan Patric
NoLife Polymath Group
tootek2.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: traditional vs. digital |
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Since: Apr 12, 2005 Posts: 14
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 5:48 pm
Post subject: Re: traditional vs. digital [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Since: Jun 11, 2004 Posts: 138
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(Msg. 6) Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 5:55 pm
Post subject: Re: traditional vs. digital [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Art Reitsch" <ar7500.RemoveThis@olympus.net> wrote in message
news:425FDE8F.5020503@olympus.net...
>I was directed to an interesting article by Bruce Barnbaum on traditional
>vs. digital fine art photography: on his website at <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.barnbaum.com," target="_blank">www.barnbaum.com,</a>
>followed by "Thoughts on digital photography". I am interested in reaction
>to his final statement in this article: "Nothing has the radiance of a
>finely crafted silver print. Nothing."
> I'm not asking for a critique of BB's work, but rather for a comparison of
> a fine traditional black and white 16x20 print with the same size
> generated digitally. I saw such a digital print about four years ago and
> did not find it as "radiant" as a darkroom print, but that's a long time
> ago in the digital world. Where does this comparison stand today?
On a similar vein, modern minilabs print digitally - ie scan the film than
use lasers to expose the paper, rather than shining light through the neg.
These produce a good match for optical processes for colour. Now it would
be possible (but probably not economically viable), to create a digital B&W
printer, that uses laser to expose true B&W paper. I wonder if such a
machine would allow digital to be a good match for a true B&W print. Even
printing from film it would offer advantages such as easier contrast
adjustment to produce more consistent prints. But then I suppose half of the
fun of the darkroom is getting it right.
I've also heard on the grapevine that there are now RA-4 B&W papers
available, so that minilab printing of B&W is better than the cyan/green
results obtained when printing the new C41 B&W's on colour paper. I wonder
how these B&W papers, which would be using dye to form the image, compare to
traditional B&W where silver forms the image.
> Art
><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: traditional vs. digital |
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Since: May 14, 2004 Posts: 81
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(Msg. 7) Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 7:37 pm
Post subject: Re: traditional vs. digital [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Art Reitsch wrote:
> I was directed to an interesting article by Bruce Barnbaum on
> traditional vs. digital fine art photography: on his website at
> <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.barnbaum.com," target="_blank">www.barnbaum.com,</a> followed by "Thoughts on digital photography". I am
> interested in reaction to his final statement in this article:
> "Nothing has the radiance of a finely crafted silver print. Nothing."
> I'm not asking for a critique of BB's work, but rather for a
> comparison of a fine traditional black and white 16x20 print with the
> same size generated digitally. I saw such a digital print about four
> years ago and did not find it as "radiant" as a darkroom print, but
> that's a long time ago in the digital world. Where does this
> comparison stand today?
> Art
>
This is the same sort of "for the average person - useless comparison
that means nothing" as the audiophiles get into. Parallel push-pulled
6L6GC's driven by "black plate" 6SN7GTB's will deliver "sweeter" highs
and more "earthy" lows then the grey body, 6V6's driven by 12ax7's.
WHAT CRAP!! (for the average person) My 47 year old badly abused by
"workplace noise" ears won't tell the difference.
I have a digital camera and I use it and I enjoy using it.
I have a 4x5 LF camera and I enjoy it and I enjoy using it
They both have their place.
WHAT BLOODY ELSE MATTERS??
Besides, isn't this a "darkroom" group? The equipment group is elsewhere.
--
regards from ::
John Bartley
43 Norway Spruce Street
Stittsville, Ontario
Canada, K2S1P5
( If you slow down it takes longer
- does that apply to life also?)<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: traditional vs. digital |
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Since: Oct 31, 2004 Posts: 906
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(Msg. 8) Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 7:42 pm
Post subject: Re: traditional vs. digital [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On 4/15/2005 4:37 PM John Bartley spake thus:
> This is the same sort of "for the average person - useless comparison
> that means nothing" as the audiophiles get into. Parallel push-pulled
> 6L6GC's driven by "black plate" 6SN7GTB's will deliver "sweeter" highs
> and more "earthy" lows then the grey body, 6V6's driven by 12ax7's.
No, no, no: only KT-88s will do!
By the way, did you realize that "KT" stands for "kinkless tetrode"? Only fine
upstanding Presbyterian valves make the grade.
--
"I know I will go to hell, because I pardoned Richard Nixon."
- Former President Gerald Ford to his golf partners, as related by
the late Hunter S. Thompson<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: traditional vs. digital |
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Since: Aug 09, 2004 Posts: 48
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(Msg. 9) Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 7:55 pm
Post subject: Re: traditional vs. digital [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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In article <F7W7e.561$oa7.7343@nnrp1.ozemail.com.au>,
"Justin Thyme" <pleasedontspamme RemoveThis @nowhere.com> writes:
>
> I've also heard on the grapevine that there are now RA-4 B&W papers
> available, so that minilab printing of B&W is better than the cyan/green
> results obtained when printing the new C41 B&W's on colour paper. I wonder
> how these B&W papers, which would be using dye to form the image, compare to
> traditional B&W where silver forms the image.
B&H has an entire page devoted to RA-4 B&W papers:
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=NavBar&A=search&Q=&ci=8816" target="_blank">http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=NavBar&A=search&Q=&ci=8816</a>
Currently, B&H is advertising products from Kodak and Oriental Seagull in
this category. I've not tried any of them, so I can't answer your
questions about them. If you're curious, though, go ahead and try. It's a
little bit pricier than conventional B&W papers, at least in 8x10 sizes (I
didn't check prices for other sizes).
--
Rod Smith, rodsmith RemoveThis @rodsbooks.com
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.rodsbooks.com" target="_blank">http://www.rodsbooks.com</a>
Author of books on Linux, FreeBSD, and networking<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: traditional vs. digital |
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Since: May 19, 2004 Posts: 482
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(Msg. 10) Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 8:55 pm
Post subject: Re: traditional vs. digital [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Justin Thyme" <pleasedontspamme.RemoveThis@nowhere.com> wrote
> Now it would be possible (but probably not economically viable), to
> create a digital B&W printer, that uses laser to expose true B&W
> paper.
If it can be done it has been done. And someone is still doing it.
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.reedphoto.com/lightjet-outputs.html" target="_blank">http://www.reedphoto.com/lightjet-outputs.html</a>
Ob History:
Exposing 'silver gelatinne' emulsion is the _original_ method of
making hardcopy photo-like images with a computer; called film
recorders, usual output was to 4x5 negatives but some took
35mm.
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.answers.com/topic/film-recorder" target="_blank">http://www.answers.com/topic/film-recorder</a>
Modern ones take movie film. Nothing says you can't load em
up with B&W.
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.celco.com/" target="_blank">http://www.celco.com/</a>
Lots of variations, not exactly a 'digital' black and white system:
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.egoltronics.com/index.html" target="_blank">http://www.egoltronics.com/index.html</a>
Some say they were a hit before your mother was born ...
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.photokb.com/Uwe/Forum.aspx/photo-darkroom/2424/Automatic-Dodging-Enla" target="_blank">http://www.photokb.com/Uwe/Forum.aspx/photo-darkroom/2424/Automatic-Dodging-Enla</a>
rger
If you are interested in the history of the whole shebang:
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://accad.osu.edu/~waynec/history/lesson1.html" target="_blank">http://accad.osu.edu/~waynec/history/lesson1.html</a>
> I wonder how these B&W papers, which would be using dye to form the
> image, compare to traditional B&W where silver forms the image.
They are as an abomination that walks the Earth.
--
Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix . netcom . com
psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: traditional vs. digital |
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Since: Jul 08, 2004 Posts: 867
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(Msg. 11) Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 9:37 pm
Post subject: Re: traditional vs. digital [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Art Reitsch <ar7500 RemoveThis @olympus.net> wrote:
: I was directed to an interesting article by Bruce Barnbaum on
: traditional vs. digital fine art photography: on his website at
: www.barnbaum.com, followed by "Thoughts on digital photography". I am
: interested in reaction to his final statement in this article: "Nothing
: has the radiance of a finely crafted silver print. Nothing."
: I'm not asking for a critique of BB's work, but rather for a comparison
: of a fine traditional black and white 16x20 print with the same size
: generated digitally. I saw such a digital print about four years ago
: and did not find it as "radiant" as a darkroom print, but that's a long
: time ago in the digital world. Where does this comparison stand today?
: Art
It's getting better but it still has a long way to go. The issue with the Dmax
has been resolved. What's left is getting the "pop" out of the midtones.
--
Keep working millions on welfare depend on you
-------------------
fwp RemoveThis @deepthought.com >> Stay informed about: traditional vs. digital |
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Since: Feb 15, 2005 Posts: 83
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(Msg. 12) Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 6:09 am
Post subject: Re: traditional vs. digital [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 08:32:31 -0700, Art Reitsch <ar7500 DeleteThis @olympus.net>
wrote:
>"Thoughts on digital photography". I am
>interested in reaction to his final statement in this article: "Nothing
>has the radiance of a finely crafted silver print. Nothing."
apr1605 from Lloyd Erlick,
In my case (and I agree with the sentiment quoted) it has nothing to
do with digital or otherwise. I like the look of photographic prints,
which is why I like to make them. I prefer them to paintings,
watercolors, graphite drawings, even listening to music. Mere personal
prejudice.
regards,
--le
________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
voice: 416-686-0326
email: portrait DeleteThis @heylloyd.com
net: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.heylloyd.com" target="_blank">www.heylloyd.com</a>
________________________________
--<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: traditional vs. digital |
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Since: May 14, 2004 Posts: 81
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(Msg. 13) Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 6:11 am
Post subject: Re: traditional vs. digital [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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David Nebenzahl wrote:
>
> Only fine upstanding Presbyterian valves make the grade.
Damn ! Another exclusive club I can't join (and didn't want to anyway
 )
--
regards from ::
John Bartley
43 Norway Spruce Street
Stittsville, Ontario
Canada, K2S1P5
( If you slow down it takes longer
- does that apply to life also?)<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: traditional vs. digital |
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Since: Jun 23, 2004 Posts: 258
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(Msg. 14) Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 7:48 am
Post subject: Re: traditional vs. digital [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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David Nebenzahl wrote:
> On 4/15/2005 4:37 PM John Bartley spake thus:
>
>> This is the same sort of "for the average person - useless
>> comparison that means nothing" as the audiophiles get into. Parallel
>> push-pulled 6L6GC's driven by "black plate" 6SN7GTB's will deliver
>> "sweeter" highs and more "earthy" lows then the grey body, 6V6's
>> driven by 12ax7's.
>
>
> No, no, no: only KT-88s will do!
No: I built one using push-pull parallel 5881s in Class A. Designed by Emory
Cook and Gus Jose in the late 1950s, IIRC. IIRC, it used GL5814As to drive
them, and a GL6072 up front. It used both voltage and current feedback, and
the screen grids got straight regulated 300volts, not hooked up to output
transformer taps.
>
> By the way, did you realize that "KT" stands for "kinkless tetrode"?
> Only fine upstanding Presbyterian valves make the grade.
>
>
--
.~. Jean-David Beyer Registered Linux User 85642.
/V\ PGP-Key: 9A2FC99A Registered Machine 241939.
/( )\ Shrewsbury, New Jersey <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://counter.li.org" target="_blank">http://counter.li.org</a>
^^-^^ 07:45:00 up 5 days, 1:00, 3 users, load average: 3.31, 3.28, 3.16<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: traditional vs. digital |
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Since: Sep 23, 2004 Posts: 404
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(Msg. 15) Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 8:55 am
Post subject: Re: traditional vs. digital [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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In article <425FDE8F.5020503 DeleteThis @olympus.net>,
Art Reitsch <ar7500 DeleteThis @olympus.net> wrote:
> I was directed to an interesting article by Bruce Barnbaum on
> traditional vs. digital fine art photography: on his website at
> <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.barnbaum.com," target="_blank">www.barnbaum.com,</a> followed by "Thoughts on digital photography". I am
> interested in reaction to his final statement in this article: "Nothing
> has the radiance of a finely crafted silver print. Nothing."
> I'm not asking for a critique of BB's work, but rather for a comparison
> of a fine traditional black and white 16x20 print with the same size
> generated digitally. I saw such a digital print about four years ago
> and did not find it as "radiant" as a darkroom print, but that's a long
> time ago in the digital world. Where does this comparison stand today?
> Art
Where it stands is that most B&W photographer/printers will agree with
BB because they understand what what it is they are seeing. A lot of
people just getting into photo or otherwise not lacking the experience
will think it is something obtainable with digital (prints or cameras)
Its not. Just one man's opinion,...but I am sure others agree.
--
LF Website @ <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank" target="_blank">http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank</a>
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong,
is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: traditional vs. digital |
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