New strobes for focal plane shutters

"Stefan Patric" <writeme RemoveThis @addressbelow.com> wrote in message
news:TmnDd.14941$yW5.9482@fed1read02...
 > On Thursday 06 January 2005 15:26, steven.sawyer RemoveThis @banet.net wrote:
 >
  >> Canon has what they call their FP flashes (a misnomer in my opinion)
  >> and
  >> Minolta has their HSS flashes. These flashes are supposed to sync at
  >> high speeds by using a sequence of pulses. I've read that this
  >> approach is only usable with vertical travel FP shutters in that the
  >> amount of time the strobe has to produce light is shorter than a
  >> horizontal
  >> curtain shutter. Would any of these flashes work on our slow boat MF
  >> focal plane shutters?
  >> Thanks
 >
 > Probably not. These type of flashes need sophisticated syncing
 > electronics in the camera and the flash to fire the flash at the proper
 > time as the focal plane shutter slit moves across the film so that the
 > multiple flashed exposures of the same scene don't overlap. Quite a
 > trick.
 >
Just when you think there is nothing new to be done in film photography,
they come up with something new.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: New strobes for focal plane shutters 

"Art" <begunaNOSPAMPLEASE.TakeThisOut@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:qdxDd.180$KJ2.132@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...

 > Just when you think there is nothing new to be done in film photography,
 > they come up with something new.

Well, an old technology might make those new things work. If someone can get
such a flash and try it on the 'M' bulb setting it might be interesting.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: New strobes for focal plane shutters 

Stefan Patric wrote:

 > Probably not. These type of flashes need sophisticated syncing
 > electronics in the camera and the flash to fire the flash at the proper
 > time as the focal plane shutter slit moves across the film so that the
 > multiple flashed exposures of the same scene don't overlap. Quite a
 > trick.

You mean like the trick that makes the sun go out and light up again at the
precise right moment during the movement of the slit across the film, so
that the multiple daylight exposures of the same scene don't overlap?

There's no risk of multiple exposures of the same scene. Just as there is no
risk of that when using continuous light ("infinitely" high pulse
frequency).

There's no trick to perform, except to puls the flash fast enough for the
light level not to vary too much. Extinction should be preempted by the next
discharge.
And that's indeed the trick these flash units (!) perform. Just like normal
household incandescent light bulbs work.
And like vapour discharge fluorescent tubes. Which work basically the same
as these flash units.
They (mains supply household lightbulbs or fluorescent lights) too do not
need "sophisticated syncing electronics in the camera".

So ignite the flash the moment the curtains begin to travel (preferably a
bit before that to allow time to reach full level output); "pulse" away
happily, and stop doing that after, say 1/30 or even 1/15 of a second.
That's it.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: New strobes for focal plane shutters 

"Q.G. de Bakker" wrote:

 > Stefan Patric wrote:
 >
  > > Probably not. These type of flashes need sophisticated syncing
  > > electronics in the camera and the flash to fire the flash at the proper
  > > time as the focal plane shutter slit moves across the film so that the
  > > multiple flashed exposures of the same scene don't overlap. Quite a
  > > trick.
 >
 > You mean like the trick that makes the sun go out and light up again at the
 > precise right moment during the movement of the slit across the film, so
 > that the multiple daylight exposures of the same scene don't overlap?
 >
 > There's no risk of multiple exposures of the same scene. Just as there is no
 > risk of that when using continuous light ("infinitely" high pulse
 > frequency).
 >
 > There's no trick to perform, except to puls the flash fast enough for the
 > light level not to vary too much. Extinction should be preempted by the next
 > discharge.
 > And that's indeed the trick these flash units (!) perform. Just like normal
 > household incandescent light bulbs work.
 > And like vapour discharge fluorescent tubes. Which work basically the same
 > as these flash units.
 > They (mains supply household lightbulbs or fluorescent lights) too do not
 > need "sophisticated syncing electronics in the camera".
 >
 > So ignite the flash the moment the curtains begin to travel (preferably a
 > bit before that to allow time to reach full level output); "pulse" away
 > happily, and stop doing that after, say 1/30 or even 1/15 of a second.
 > That's it.

Is there a particular flash unit you could recommend. Most of the models I've
seen are designed to be used on a Minolta or Canon camera. I believe the
Minolta can do a standard sync at 1/125, so I'm not sure any of these units
could provide a steady flow of pulses for 1/15 of a second.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: New strobes for focal plane shutters 

jjs wrote:

 > "Art" <begunaNOSPAMPLEASE.DeleteThis@mindspring.com> wrote in message
 > news:qdxDd.180$KJ2.132@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
 >
  > > Just when you think there is nothing new to be done in film photography,
  > > they come up with something new.
 >
 > Well, an old technology might make those new things work. If someone can get
 > such a flash and try it on the 'M' bulb setting it might be interesting.

Again, the issue is how long can the newer flash units keep strobing? I don't
see the advantage of using an "M" sync with a strobe. All you're going to do is
make the amount of time the unit keeps strobing 17 to 30ms longer.

The funny thing is that I think now with the faster FP shutters you could get
away with an "M" bulb (or even maybe an "F") as opposed to the more expensive FP
bulbs that were required for the curtain shutters of yesteryear. Of course none
of these newer cameras provide an "M" sync. Maybe I should write to Minolta and
ask for them to add an flashbulb sync to their new generation of SLRs<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: New strobes for focal plane shutters 

Art wrote:

 > Just when you think there is nothing new to be done in film photography,
 > they come up with something new.

I believe these strobes have been around for a few years now. I think the
reason why they aren't touted is that they run into the same problems FP bulb
users of yesteryear encountered. With bulbs or sequential strobes, the
shutter speed matters in that the guide number goes down as the shutter speed
goes up.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: New strobes for focal plane shutters 

steven.sawyer RemoveThis @banet.net wrote:

 > jjs wrote:
 >
  >> "Art" <begunaNOSPAMPLEASE RemoveThis @mindspring.com> wrote in message
  >> news:qdxDd.180$KJ2.132@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
  >>
   >> > Just when you think there is nothing new to be done in film
   >> > photography, they come up with something new.
  >>
  >> Well, an old technology might make those new things work. If someone can
  >> get such a flash and try it on the 'M' bulb setting it might be
  >> interesting.
 >
 > Again, the issue is how long can the newer flash units keep strobing?

Do some research, the older f280 flash developed for the OM4 has a flash
duration of 1/25 of a second. This isn't new technology.
--

Stacey<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: New strobes for focal plane shutters 

steven.sawyer.RemoveThis@banet.net wrote:

 >
 > Is there a particular flash unit you could recommend. Most of the models
 > I've
 > seen are designed to be used on a Minolta or Canon camera. I believe the
 > Minolta can do a standard sync at 1/125, so I'm not sure any of these
 > units could provide a steady flow of pulses for 1/15 of a second.

Look at the olympus F280. It has a flash duration of 1/25 and has a manual
mode. No idea if it would actually work but it looks possible?

--

Stacey<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: New strobes for focal plane shutters 

Stacey wrote:

 > steven.sawyer RemoveThis @banet.net wrote:
 >
  > >
  > > Is there a particular flash unit you could recommend. Most of the models
  > > I've
  > > seen are designed to be used on a Minolta or Canon camera. I believe the
  > > Minolta can do a standard sync at 1/125, so I'm not sure any of these
  > > units could provide a steady flow of pulses for 1/15 of a second.
 >
 > Look at the olympus F280. It has a flash duration of 1/25 and has a manual
 > mode. No idea if it would actually work but it looks possible?
 >

That won't do it for my Praktisix II with a sync speed of 1/15. Would it cover
the shutter action of a Kiev 60?
Wouldn't the Olympus only work with an Olympus body? Wouldn't you need some
sort of adapter to even fire the flash from a PC socket?<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: New strobes for focal plane shutters 

steven.sawyer RemoveThis @banet.net wrote:


 > Is there a particular flash unit you could recommend. Most of the models
I've
 > seen are designed to be used on a Minolta or Canon camera. I believe the
 > Minolta can do a standard sync at 1/125, so I'm not sure any of these
units
 > could provide a steady flow of pulses for 1/15 of a second.

Sorry, no.
I can't really recommend any, since i only know the Olympus unit, which, i
believe, is a dedicated unit (OM4-Ti).

Pitty that they no longer make FP-flash bulbs. Or do they? Can we still get
some?<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: New strobes for focal plane shutters 

steven.sawyer.TakeThisOut@banet.net wrote:

  > > Just when you think there is nothing new to be done in film photography,
  > > they come up with something new.
 >
 > I believe these strobes have been around for a few years now. I think the
 > reason why they aren't touted is that they run into the same problems FP
bulb
 > users of yesteryear encountered. With bulbs or sequential strobes, the
 > shutter speed matters in that the guide number goes down as the shutter
speed
 > goes up.

That's right.
The general idea is that the shutter speed should be at least as long as the
"on" time of the light source. No matter the type of light source.
If it is, only burn time and diaphragm will determine exposure. If it isn't,
the shutterspeed will too.

The flash unit "in effect" acts like a (somewhat unsteady in output) normal,
"continuous" light, by being "on" longer than the time needed by the
shutter.
So shutter speeds matter.

The same is true using high power flash units with long burn times (which
are proportional to output: the gas can only "light" with a certain maximum
brightness. More light is produced by "burning" longer, resulting in burn
times of as low as 1/100 sec.)<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: New strobes for focal plane shutters 

"Q.G. de Bakker" wrote:

 > steven.sawyer.DeleteThis@banet.net wrote:
 >
  > > Is there a particular flash unit you could recommend. Most of the models
 > I've
  > > seen are designed to be used on a Minolta or Canon camera. I believe the
  > > Minolta can do a standard sync at 1/125, so I'm not sure any of these
 > units
  > > could provide a steady flow of pulses for 1/15 of a second.
 >
 > Sorry, no.
 > I can't really recommend any, since i only know the Olympus unit, which, i
 > believe, is a dedicated unit (OM4-Ti).
 >
 > Pitty that they no longer make FP-flash bulbs. Or do they? Can we still get
 > some?

As far as I know they're not being made anymore. Bill Cress' site
(www.flashbulbs.com) has them priced at $45/dozen. They can be found on eBay,
but are not as common as other bulbs. I asked Meggaflash about their larger
bulbs, but they gave me evasive answers. Again, I think with modern "vertical"
FP shutters, you'd easily get away with "M" bulbs. I was thinking even "F"
bulbs would do, but I looked at a spec sheet and they only fire for 1/200 sec
and so would not be good for a 1/90 or 1/125 sync.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: New strobes for focal plane shutters 

"Q.G. de Bakker" <qnu DeleteThis @tiscali.nl> wrote in message
news:41dfc629$0$34446$ee9da40f@news.wanadoo.nl...

 > Pitty that they no longer make FP-flash bulbs. Or do they? Can we still
 > get
 > some?

Yes, but they are particularly powerful and very expensive. See
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.meggaflash.com" target="_blank">http://www.meggaflash.com</a>

I'm down to maybe five cases of bulbs, then I'm afraid that's the end of
'em.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: New strobes for focal plane shutters