Some simple questions about Single-Tray Processing

"David Nebenzahl" <nobody.RemoveThis@but.us.chickens> wrote in message
news:47bcbe8d$0$21766$822641b3@news.adtechcomputers.com...

> Yes, I'm familiar with tube processing, as I use it for sheet film (4x5 &
> 9x12). For film, it makes a lot of sense to me, at least compared to tray
> processing, with which I've had little success. (I would prefer tray
> processing if I weren't such a klutz, since I belive it yields superior
> results.)

Keep your eyes open for those 'canoe' or rocking stainless trays once used
for color processing. I ran across three NIB for $5 each. Very good for
8x10" film. And short print runs.
 >> Stay informed about: Some simple questions about Single-Tray Processing 

In article <47bcbe8d$0$21766$822641b3@news.adtechcomputers.com>,
David Nebenzahl <nobody RemoveThis @but.us.chickens> wrote:
>
> at least compared to
> tray processing, with which I've had little success. (I would prefer
> tray processing if I weren't such a klutz, since I belive it yields
> superior results.)

Just the point though, most people are kind of klutzy, drums or tubes
provide most of us mortals with better results. Then there is that AA
wannabe thing going on, that says if some xyz great photographer could
or can do it so can I - it takes years of practice-but then so does
camera work in general.

--
Reality is a picture perfected and never looking back.
 >> Stay informed about: Some simple questions about Single-Tray Processing 

Dnia Wed, 20 Feb 2008 11:58:57 -0800, David Nebenzahl napisa³(a):

> Actually, it was Lawrence Akutagawa who suggested the tray ladder.

Right, sorry Lawrence

Greetings,
Henry
 >> Stay informed about: Some simple questions about Single-Tray Processing 

<jjs> wrote in message news:13rpt3j9rduhi3f@news.supernews.com...
>
> "David Nebenzahl" <nobody RemoveThis @but.us.chickens> wrote in message
> news:47bcbe8d$0$21766$822641b3@news.adtechcomputers.com...
>
>> Yes, I'm familiar with tube processing, as I use it for sheet film (4x5 &
>> 9x12). For film, it makes a lot of sense to me, at least compared to tray
>> processing, with which I've had little success. (I would prefer tray
>> processing if I weren't such a klutz, since I belive it yields superior
>> results.)
>
> Keep your eyes open for those 'canoe' or rocking stainless trays once used
> for color processing. I ran across three NIB for $5 each. Very good for
> 8x10" film. And short print runs.
>
>
I've seen pictures of those things, but never in real life...
How do you drain them? Seems to me if you tried to drain from the sides (to
follow the canoe analogy, from the gunwales), that it would go all over the
place. And from the pictures, it seems as if the ends (the bow and the
stern) have a lip that would prevent draining.
Thanks!
 >> Stay informed about: Some simple questions about Single-Tray Processing 

On Feb 20, 10:43 pm, "Ken Hart" <kwha....DeleteThis@verizon.net> wrote:
> "Steven Woody" <narkewo....DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:343b85e9-d7ec-479b-8187-eab6b5b98d21@e23g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> snip>> Yes, I do B/W. But if solution temperature is not ranged around 68F,
> > i am not sure how many minutes I should put a paper in the developer.
> > B/W print is really develop-to-complete? I am afraid if I develop a
> > paper too much, it will goes darker than it should in normal.
>
> How much does the temperature vary in your darkroom? If your darkroom is in
> a "comfort range", perhaos 65-75F, you shouldn't have any problem. Color
> RA-4 and film processing would be a different matter, of course

Do you mean in this temperature range, I can develop a print for 2 or
3 minutues and the result will be same? Acutally, I can control my
darkroom temperature to 65-78F.
..
>
>
>
> >> > 3, A well built, larger, dedicated photographic tray is not cheap.
>
> >> Really? At least here (the US), trays are probably the cheapest items in
> >> a darkroom. Where are you?
>
> > Buy a Jobo AP 8x10 plastic tray in China, you need about 8 dollors,
> > and 16 dollors for 16'' tray.
>
> Just because you are using it for photo processing doesn't mean it must be a
> photo tray. (Actually for a 16x20 Jobo tray, that's probably not a bad
> price!) I don't know what's available in China, but in the USA, you can
> find a lot of darkroom usable stuff at WalMart and HomeDepot

Understood. Thank you.
 >> Stay informed about: Some simple questions about Single-Tray Processing 

On Feb 21, 7:16 am, dan.c.qu....RemoveThis@att.net wrote:
> On Feb 19, 10:01 pm, Steven Woody wrote:
>
>
>
> > I interested in single-tray because,
>
> > 1, My room is not large, even thougth it's capable use
> > three trays, use one tray only is attractive to me;
>
> Single tray processing is a great space saver. I would
> need six trays to duplicate the results I obtain with one tray.
> And that is just basic high quality processing. Conventional
> six tray processing includes a developer, stop bath, fixer 1,
> fixer 2, rinse, and hypo clear. I can do that with One tray
> and need only two of the above six steps; develope -
> fix. Both are Very dilute and used only once.

Dan,

1, What's the dillution you used for developor and fixer?
2, What is your workflow? ( i.e. how many fixing, how many rinses, I
mean how you do the one-tray thing step by step )

> The little processing needed is done conveniently using
> One-shot very dilute chemistry. I believe that is where Mr.
> Nebenzahl fails to connect; One-Tray + One Shot chemistry.
> There is No reason to use more than One tray if the Chemistry
> is used One-Shot. I'm sure David is familiar with the rotary
> process and the fact that some who do use One Tube
> also use One-Shot chemistry. Dan
 >> Stay informed about: Some simple questions about Single-Tray Processing 

On 20 fév, 03:16, Steven Woody <narkewo....TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Since I've not managed to reache Lloyd Erlick's web site, so I like to
> ask some basic questions about how to exactly do single-tray printing
> here. Hope you professionals be kind to give me some clear answers.
> Thanks in advance.

Well, "professionals" most probably don't use the single-tray but
other more productive techniques (processors, etc ...).
If your space is very limited, then instead of using a single-tray, I
would use a drum or tube.
You can keep the lights on during the processing and pouring in/out is
just easier.
You may also use a motor to rotate the drum which lets you do
something else.
Then, you may use the chemicals one-shot or re-use them.
Of course, this setup does cost more than a single tray but IMO is
more efficient and agreable.

>
> I already have basic ideal about single-tray, i.e. pouring-in,
> pouring-out in only one tray, but I don't know ( For both RC &
> Fiber ):
>
> 1, Does basic processing steps keep unchanged? i.e., Develop, Stop,
> Fix#1, Fix#2, Rinse in wash acid if Fiber, Wash? Is there any
> additional step needed? ( In searching google, I found some people
> likely do extra Rine before Fix#1 and after Fix#2 and he do each Rinse
> three times )

I don't see why the rinse after the Fix#2 should be acid ...
And, after that rinse, I would definetely use a washaid before the
final wash as it lets you reduce the wash time significantly (roughly
by half).

> 2, Because Developer is always one-shop usage, so I think dillute it
> more would be reasonable. If I use Kodak D-72. What's a you suggested
> dillution and starndard developing time?

Keep in mind that very diluted developer requires a much longer
development time and if not done properly may result in poor blacks.
If you go the diluted route, then process a print with a normal
strength developer to have a comparison point.

>
> 3, What's the suggested Rinse time ( if Fiber ) and Wash time?

If you use a washaid, the rinse is around 5' then the commonly
accepted wash time is around half an hour but that may vary
significantly depending on your washer, the hardness of the water, its
temperature, if the prints stick together or not, etc ...
So the good recommendation is to check your washing procedure with a
hypo residual test (I should have the formula somewhere or others will
give it to you) and then stick to your procedure whatever it is.

If you don't use a washaid (which I can't recommend), then you can
easily double these figures but I don't see the need for a rinse.
The rinse is meant to remove the superficial fix before another bath,
if there is no additional bath, then it is just part of the wash.
Don't forget the wash is done with (slowly) running water or water
baths replaced regularly.

For RC paper, then all washing procedure is much simpler and quicker
and the substrate does not absorb the fix, only the emulsion needs to
be washed.

>
> Thanks.

Find below Ilford's procedure of processing films:
http://www.ilfordphoto.com/applications/download.asp?n=386
And papers:
http://www.ilfordphoto.com/applications/download.asp?n=390

You should be able to find similar documents on Kodak's site.

Best regards,
Claudio Bonavolta
http://www.bonavolta.ch
 >> Stay informed about: Some simple questions about Single-Tray Processing 

On Feb 21, 8:06 pm, Claudio Bonavolta <clau... DeleteThis @bonavolta.ch> wrote:
> On 20 fév, 03:16, Steven Woody <narkewo... DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
>
> > Since I've not managed to reache Lloyd Erlick's web site, so I like to
> > ask some basic questions about how to exactly do single-tray printing
> > here. Hope you professionals be kind to give me some clear answers.
> > Thanks in advance.
>
> Well, "professionals" most probably don't use the single-tray but
> other more productive techniques (processors, etc ...).
> If your space is very limited, then instead of using a single-tray, I
> would use a drum or tube.
> You can keep the lights on during the processing and pouring in/out is
> just easier.
> You may also use a motor to rotate the drum which lets you do
> something else.
> Then, you may use the chemicals one-shot or re-use them.
> Of course, this setup does cost more than a single tray but IMO is
> more efficient and agreable.
>
>
>
> > I already have basic ideal about single-tray, i.e. pouring-in,
> > pouring-out in only one tray, but I don't know ( For both RC &
> > Fiber ):
>
> > 1, Does basic processing steps keep unchanged? i.e., Develop, Stop,
> > Fix#1, Fix#2, Rinse in wash acid if Fiber, Wash? Is there any
> > additional step needed? ( In searching google, I found some people
> > likely do extra Rine before Fix#1 and after Fix#2 and he do each Rinse
> > three times )
>
> I don't see why the rinse after the Fix#2 should be acid ...
> And, after that rinse, I would definetely use a washaid before the
> final wash as it lets you reduce the wash time significantly (roughly
> by half).
>
> > 2, Because Developer is always one-shop usage, so I think dillute it
> > more would be reasonable. If I use Kodak D-72. What's a you suggested
> > dillution and starndard developing time?
>
> Keep in mind that very diluted developer requires a much longer
> development time and if not done properly may result in poor blacks.
> If you go the diluted route, then process a print with a normal
> strength developer to have a comparison point.
>
>
>
> > 3, What's the suggested Rinse time ( if Fiber ) and Wash time?
>
> If you use a washaid, the rinse is around 5' then the commonly
> accepted wash time is around half an hour but that may vary
> significantly depending on your washer, the hardness of the water, its
> temperature, if the prints stick together or not, etc ...
> So the good recommendation is to check your washing procedure with a
> hypo residual test (I should have the formula somewhere or others will
> give it to you) and then stick to your procedure whatever it is.
>
> If you don't use a washaid (which I can't recommend), then you can
> easily double these figures but I don't see the need for a rinse.
> The rinse is meant to remove the superficial fix before another bath,
> if there is no additional bath, then it is just part of the wash.
> Don't forget the wash is done with (slowly) running water or water
> baths replaced regularly.
>
> For RC paper, then all washing procedure is much simpler and quicker
> and the substrate does not absorb the fix, only the emulsion needs to
> be washed.
>
>
>
> > Thanks.
>
> Find below Ilford's procedure of processing films:http://www.ilfordphoto.com/applications/download.asp?n=386
> And papers:http://www.ilfordphoto.com/applications/download.asp?n=390
>
> You should be able to find similar documents on Kodak's site.
>
> Best regards,
> Claudio Bonavoltahttp://www.bonavolta.ch

Thanks for you advices. How much a print drum will cost? Do you have
some suggested brands? Thanks again.

-
woody
 >> Stay informed about: Some simple questions about Single-Tray Processing 

On 2/21/2008 7:59 AM Steven Woody spake thus:

> Thanks for you advices. How much a print drum will cost? Do you have
> some suggested brands? Thanks again.

Beseler/Unicolor. Used. Look on eBay; they're pretty cheap. (You need
the drum and the motor base used to rotate it. Forget doing it by hand.)
 >> Stay informed about: Some simple questions about Single-Tray Processing 

"David Nebenzahl" <nobody.DeleteThis@but.us.chickens> wrote in message
news:47bdb8ff$0$27629$822641b3@news.adtechcomputers.com...
> On 2/21/2008 7:59 AM Steven Woody spake thus:
>
>> Thanks for you advices. How much a print drum will cost? Do you have
>> some suggested brands? Thanks again.
>
> Beseler/Unicolor. Used. Look on eBay; they're pretty cheap. (You need the
> drum and the motor base used to rotate it. Forget doing it by hand.)

With all due respect, you don't NEED a roller base. But now that I have one,
no way am I giving it up!

I have problems with the drum 'walking' to one side or the other as it
rotates. I've tried adjusting the leveling screw, but can't seem to get it
right. Any suggestions? My current solution is to just have it walk to one
side and set a container there to stop it from going further.
 >> Stay informed about: Some simple questions about Single-Tray Processing 

On Feb 21, 2:08 am, Steven Woody wrote:
>
> Dan,
>
> 1, What's the dillution you used for developor and fixer?
> 2, What is your workflow?  ( i.e. how many fixing, how
> many rinses, I mean how you do the one-tray thing
> step by step )
>

My method is Very simple and direct; develop, fix.
No stop bath and no rinses. Prints after the fix go into
a hold and soak tray. I use non-woven polyester sheets
to keep the prints separated. The same for the two
following soaks. The last soak is overnight.

If I were to use D-72 I would make up one liter of
working strength by diluting the full strength 1:7. That
would be 125ml of stock plus 875ml of water. Use 1/3 of
that liter of working strength for each 8x10. Allow 4 minutes
of constant agitation for development. Turn the print over
upon itself now and then to insure a thorough mixing
of the fresh but very dilute solution
Let me know which fixer you use so that I can suggest
a dilution. I use sodium thiosulfate pure and simple. It is
a dry concentrate which will keep for many years. I mix
fresh fixer just prior to use.
BTW, if you are testing using 5x7 use 140ml of that
dilute D-72. Dan
 >> Stay informed about: Some simple questions about Single-Tray Processing 

I've heard of some folks placing large rubber bands around both ends of the
drum close to the rollers to keep the drum from drifting. Dunno myself - I
do the manual rolling back and forth, varying the angle and duration of the
rolls.

"Ken Hart" <kwhart1 DeleteThis @verizon.net> wrote in message
news:fpkgb5$v6v$1@aioe.org...
>
> "David Nebenzahl" <nobody DeleteThis @but.us.chickens> wrote in message
> news:47bdb8ff$0$27629$822641b3@news.adtechcomputers.com...
>> On 2/21/2008 7:59 AM Steven Woody spake thus:
>>
>>> Thanks for you advices. How much a print drum will cost? Do you have
>>> some suggested brands? Thanks again.
>>
>> Beseler/Unicolor. Used. Look on eBay; they're pretty cheap. (You need the
>> drum and the motor base used to rotate it. Forget doing it by hand.)
>
> With all due respect, you don't NEED a roller base. But now that I have
> one, no way am I giving it up!
>
> I have problems with the drum 'walking' to one side or the other as it
> rotates. I've tried adjusting the leveling screw, but can't seem to get it
> right. Any suggestions? My current solution is to just have it walk to one
> side and set a container there to stop it from going further.
>
 >> Stay informed about: Some simple questions about Single-Tray Processing 

Ken Hart wrote:
> "David Nebenzahl" <nobody DeleteThis @but.us.chickens> wrote in message
> news:47bdb8ff$0$27629$822641b3@news.adtechcomputers.com...
>> On 2/21/2008 7:59 AM Steven Woody spake thus:
>>
>>> Thanks for you advices. How much a print drum will cost? Do you have
>>> some suggested brands? Thanks again.
>> Beseler/Unicolor. Used. Look on eBay; they're pretty cheap. (You need the
>> drum and the motor base used to rotate it. Forget doing it by hand.)
>
> With all due respect, you don't NEED a roller base. But now that I have one,
> no way am I giving it up!
>
> I have problems with the drum 'walking' to one side or the other as it
> rotates. I've tried adjusting the leveling screw, but can't seem to get it
> right. Any suggestions? My current solution is to just have it walk to one
> side and set a container there to stop it from going further.
_____
Depending on the roller base design, i have used with success a very
large diameter O-ring of 3 to 4 mm cross section on the drum. The drum
will generally drift into the same direction. Place the O-ring such
that the drum will stay approximately in the center once the ring nudges
against one of the rollers. Test it with a normal water load to see if
the whole thing remains stable for the duration of the longest process step.
--
Regards / JCH
 >> Stay informed about: Some simple questions about Single-Tray Processing