sharpness & grain

"Christian Sulzer" <christian.sulzer DeleteThis @inode.at> wrote in
message news:1fb04$46cc34bf$53418c62$21998@news.inode.at...
> Hi!
>
> I'm practicing darkroom work for about 5 months now as a
> hobby using Tri-X and X-Tol(1:1) as my film/dev combo,
> printing my 35mm Neg's on Multigrade RC-Paper from 18x24
> to 24x30 (cm), so my experience is pretty moderate.
> When I look at pictures from my favourite Photographers
> like Larry Towell, Koudelka, Burri etc. i always wondered
> how to achieve this grainy, sharp look even at lower
> enlargement sizes.
> I tried pushing Tri-X to 1600 but it did not force grain
> size too much, and it is not always an option for
> photographing subjects. Since i want to stick with Tri-X
> as long as possible, i thought about trying another
> developer (HC-110/Rodinal?). I use a Meopta Magnifax 4A
> enlarger with Meograde. Maybe someone could give me a
> hint?
>
> Thanks in advance and sorry for my poor english,
> Chris

A sharp grain image give the illusion that the entire
image is sharp.
Some developers do better at producing sharp grain
patterns than others and some produce more of the effect
called "acutance" (Kodak term), which is an exageration at
the edges of transitions from high to low density in the
image.
A traditional developer for producing both sharp grain
and acutance effects is Rodinal. Grain is greatest when used
at fairly low dilutions (say 1:25), acutance becomes greater
as the developer is diluted (say 1:50 or more) but, unlike
some other developers, the grain gets finer with dilution.
Rodinal was discontinued when Agfa went out of the
photographic materials business but is evidently still being
made by others.
A number of other developers will produce the acutance
effect when diluted. Even D-76 or Ilford ID-11 will produce
it at 1:3 dilutions. HC-110 is another possibility.
There are no really coarse grain films on the market now
but the old rule that fast films are grainier than slow ones
still holds so choose a fast, conventional grain film. The
last means that tabluar grain films, like the T-Max series,
or Ilford Delta series, have inherently finer grain than
conventional cubic grain films of similar speed like Tri-X
(although Tri-X is really a pretty fine grain film).
Also, keep in mind that published pictures may have been
subjected to manipulation. One can add grain patterns in
printing or electronically and all digital image editors
have some sort of sharpening function.
Real sharpness in photographic prints depends on having
sharp negatives and very good enlarging equipment. The
enlarging lens should be of good quality (although it does
not have to be the latest and most expensive) and the
enlarger should be well aligned and vibration-free.
Grain can sometimes add something to an image but I
started in photography when grain was hard to avoid and have
never been a fan of grainy images.


--
---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk DeleteThis @ix.netcom.com
 >> Stay informed about: sharpness & grain 

On 22 août, 15:22, Christian Sulzer <christian.sul....TakeThisOut@inode.at> wrote:
> Hi!
>
> I'm practicing darkroom work for about 5 months now as a hobby using
> Tri-X and X-Tol(1:1) as my film/dev combo, printing my 35mm Neg's on
> Multigrade RC-Paper from 18x24 to 24x30 (cm), so my experience is pretty
> moderate.
> When I look at pictures from my favourite Photographers like Larry
> Towell, Koudelka, Burri etc. i always wondered how to achieve this
> grainy, sharp look even at lower enlargement sizes.
> I tried pushing Tri-X to 1600 but it did not force grain size too much,
> and it is not always an option for photographing subjects. Since i want
> to stick with Tri-X as long as possible, i thought about trying another
> developer (HC-110/Rodinal?). I use a Meopta Magnifax 4A enlarger with
> Meograde. Maybe someone could give me a hint?
>
> Thanks in advance and sorry for my poor english,
> Chris

Tri-X and Xtol in 35mm is a really nice combo but to good if you're
looking for grain ...
Tri-X changed a few years ago and is less grainy now, you may look at
films like HP-5 that is a bit grainier or films from Eastern Europe or
China (all these are easily available from webshops in Germany) that
are much grainier.
Another option is to use developers like Rodinal which gives really
large grain and lots of acutance (edge sharpness).
You may also push the film but keep in mind that doing so will
increase contrast and may not suit your subject.

Claudio Bonavolta
http://www.bonavolta.ch
 >> Stay informed about: sharpness & grain 

"Christian Sulzer" <christian.sulzer RemoveThis @inode.at> wrote

> how to achieve this grainy, sharp look even at lower enlargement sizes.

Often ignored in the clamour of 'my favorite developer' is
the obvious - for sharp grain you need to make _sharp_ prints:

o A very sharp lens;
o Used at optimum aperture (usually 5.6);
o Glass negative carrier;
o No vibration;
o Precise enlarger alignment.

To find a very sharp lens you may need to try several
samples as lens-to-lens variation is often greater than
the difference between 'low-end' and 'high-end' lenses.

--
Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Darkroom Automation: F-Stop Timers, Enlarging Meters
http://www.darkroomautomation.com/index.htm
n o lindan at ix dot netcom dot com
 >> Stay informed about: sharpness & grain 

On Aug 22, 9:22 am, Christian Sulzer <christian.sul....DeleteThis@inode.at>
wrote:
> Hi!
>
> I'm practicing darkroom work for about 5 months now as a hobby using
> Tri-X and X-Tol(1:1) as my film/dev combo, printing my 35mm Neg's on
> Multigrade RC-Paper from 18x24 to 24x30 (cm), so my experience is pretty
> moderate.
> When I look at pictures from my favourite Photographers like Larry
> Towell, Koudelka, Burri etc. i always wondered how to achieve this
> grainy, sharp look even at lower enlargement sizes.
> I tried pushing Tri-X to 1600 but it did not force grain size too much,
> and it is not always an option for photographing subjects. Since i want
> to stick with Tri-X as long as possible, i thought about trying another
> developer (HC-110/Rodinal?). I use a Meopta Magnifax 4A enlarger with
> Meograde. Maybe someone could give me a hint?
>
> Thanks in advance and sorry for my poor english,
> Chris

Try this:

Expose your film at half the ISO speed and develop for about 2/3 the
recommended time. Print on grade 3 filtration (adjust the developing
time until all your negatives print well on grade 3). You prints will
look VERY sharp and the grain will be well-defined but 'fine'.
 >> Stay informed about: sharpness & grain 

Christian Sulzer wrote:
> Hi!
>
> I'm practicing darkroom work for about 5 months now as a hobby using
> Tri-X and X-Tol(1:1) as my film/dev combo, printing my 35mm Neg's on
> Multigrade RC-Paper from 18x24 to 24x30 (cm), so my experience is pretty
> moderate.

Grain is your friend. Believe it.

First make the image sharp using good technique, then try D-76, ID-11
(about the same) and Rodinal 1:100. The later will give more latitude,
or 1:25 for super-snap.

Repeat: GRAIN IS YOUR FRIEND! The digital mavens can't so the same
thing. They get noise in the black space and think it's grain. Pity.
 >> Stay informed about: sharpness & grain 

On Aug 22, 8:21 pm, pico <p... DeleteThis @pico.pico> wrote:
> Christian Sulzer wrote:
> > Hi!
>
> > I'm practicing darkroom work for about 5 months now as a hobby using
> > Tri-X and X-Tol(1:1) as my film/dev combo, printing my 35mm Neg's on
> > Multigrade RC-Paper from 18x24 to 24x30 (cm), so my experience is pretty
> > moderate.
>
> Grain is your friend. Believe it.
>
> First make the image sharp using good technique, then try D-76, ID-11
> (about the same) and Rodinal 1:100. The later will give more latitude,
> or 1:25 for super-snap.
>
> Repeat: GRAIN IS YOUR FRIEND! The digital mavens can't so the same
> thing. They get noise in the black space and think it's grain. Pity.


Sharp, small, well-defined grain, yes. Big, blobby 'push' grain is
ugly.
 >> Stay informed about: sharpness & grain 

A sturdy tripod is the first step toward maximum sharpness regardless
of shutter speed, format or camera type. Second step: cable release.
Third step: mirror lock (if you have one). There are many valid
excuses for not using a tripod but nothing will contribute more to a
sharp detailed negative than a well made tripod. If you want to pursue
this subject further consider reading Barry Thornton's Edge of
Darkness. As to grain I have always looked to minimize it so can't
help there but cropping at the enlargement stage is a sure way to
increase grain size.
 >> Stay informed about: sharpness & grain 

<1990lt5.DeleteThis@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1187940291.681271.240570@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>A sturdy tripod is the first step toward maximum sharpness regardless
> of shutter speed, format or camera type. Second step: cable release.
> Third step: mirror lock (if you have one). There are many valid
> excuses for not using a tripod but nothing will contribute more to a
> sharp detailed negative than a well made tripod. If you want to pursue
> this subject further consider reading Barry Thornton's Edge of
> Darkness. As to grain I have always looked to minimize it so can't
> help there but cropping at the enlargement stage is a sure way to
> increase grain size.
>

To push this even further a compendium lens hood/shield goes a long way to
making an image look clearer. Sharper?. Not so much the little play metal
rings so often available but I am refering to the bellows hoods that remove
/reduce as much oblique light falling on to the lens (ecpecially on dull
overcast days.) and if one uses a reducer on the front that is racked in and
out to just fit the image showen on the gg. will help deduce any stray
internal scattered light thats not actually image forming. My $0.02 worth.
--
Otzi
 >> Stay informed about: sharpness & grain 

"Christian Sulzer" <christian.sulzer DeleteThis @inode.at> wrote in message
news:1fb04$46cc34bf$53418c62$21998@news.inode.at...
> Hi!
>
> I'm practicing darkroom work for about 5 months now as a hobby using Tri-X
> and X-Tol(1:1) as my film/dev combo, printing my 35mm Neg's on Multigrade
> RC-Paper from 18x24 to 24x30 (cm), so my experience is pretty moderate.
> When I look at pictures from my favourite Photographers like Larry Towell,
> Koudelka, Burri etc. i always wondered how to achieve this grainy, sharp
> look even at lower enlargement sizes.

http://www.digoliardi.net/images/dawn.jpg

Is that the kind of grain you want?
That's a scan from a print and the grain is not as sharp in the JPG as the
print which was on 14" paper.
 >> Stay informed about: sharpness & grain 

"pico" <pico.pico.net> wrote

> When I look at pictures from my favourite Photographers like Larry Towell,
> Koudelka, Burri etc. i always wondered how to achieve this grainy, sharp
> look even at lower enlargement sizes.

It's not the grain that makes a Towell, Koudelka or Rene Burri.
Duplicating it won't improve one's work.

The standard B&W PJ material is Tri-X, one stop push in
D76 1:1.

If you want -sharp- grain you are going to need a -sharp-
enlarger. Sharp grain has to be sharp corner-to-corner.
So the first item you will need, and more important
than any choice in enlarging lens (which, except for
the cheapies, are all pretty much the same), is a glass
negative carrier.

For lots of grain try TMZ shot at 800 and developed in
D76 1:1 or Rodinal [or Dektol for the adventurous];
I never like it.

You can get larger grain, though not sharper grain, by
using a wide-angle lens and using only the center third
of the negative.

--
Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Darkroom Automation: F-Stop Timers, Enlarging Meters
http://www.darkroomautomation.com/index.htm
n o lindan at ix dot netcom dot com
 >> Stay informed about: sharpness & grain 

Christian Sulzer wrote:
> Hi!
>
> I'm practicing darkroom work for about 5 months now as a hobby using
> Tri-X and X-Tol(1:1) as my film/dev combo, printing my 35mm Neg's on
> Multigrade RC-Paper from 18x24 to 24x30 (cm), so my experience is pretty
> moderate.
> When I look at pictures from my favourite Photographers like Larry
> Towell, Koudelka, Burri etc. i always wondered how to achieve this
> grainy, sharp look even at lower enlargement sizes.
> I tried pushing Tri-X to 1600 but it did not force grain size too much,
> and it is not always an option for photographing subjects. Since i want
> to stick with Tri-X as long as possible, i thought about trying another
> developer (HC-110/Rodinal?). I use a Meopta Magnifax 4A enlarger with
> Meograde. Maybe someone could give me a hint?

Tri-X in Rodinal 1+50 was *quite* grainy in my experience,
to the point of being a special effect for me. The Massive
Dev Chart suggests times for Tri-X at various EIs; I recall using
Tri-X at EI 200, Rodinal 1+50, 9 minutes @ 20C, but you'll need to
run some tests of your own.

Dana


Dana
 >> Stay informed about: sharpness & grain 

In article <13ibnv13qv0s358.TakeThisOut@corp.supernews.com>,
Nicholas O. Lindan <see.TakeThisOut@sig.com> wrote:
>"pico" <pico.pico.net> wrote
>
>> When I look at pictures from my favourite Photographers like Larry Towell,
>> Koudelka, Burri etc. i always wondered how to achieve this grainy, sharp
>> look even at lower enlargement sizes.
>
>It's not the grain that makes a Towell, Koudelka or Rene Burri.
>Duplicating it won't improve one's work.
>
>The standard B&W PJ material is Tri-X, one stop push in
>D76 1:1.
>
>If you want -sharp- grain you are going to need a -sharp-
>enlarger. Sharp grain has to be sharp corner-to-corner.
>So the first item you will need, and more important
>than any choice in enlarging lens (which, except for
>the cheapies, are all pretty much the same), is a glass
>negative carrier.
>
>For lots of grain try TMZ shot at 800 and developed in
>D76 1:1 or Rodinal [or Dektol for the adventurous];
>I never like it.

This will have less grain than Tri-X shot at 800 and developed
to the same contrast index. Tri-X in Acufine works pretty well,
in my experience, if you want lots of grain, but the tonal rendering
is a bit funny. Theater photographers used to like this.

The real champion for sharp grain used to be 2475 Recording Film: an
ISO 1000 old-technology film that could be developed for normal
pictoral contrast while giving lovely big lumpy grain in an 8x10
enlargement. Gone for years now, unfortunately.

--
Thor Lancelot Simon tls.TakeThisOut@rek.tjls.com

"The inconsistency is startling, though admittedly, if consistency is to
be abandoned or transcended, there is no problem." - Noam Chomsky
 >> Stay informed about: sharpness & grain 

"Nicholas O. Lindan" <see.DeleteThis@sig.com> wrote in message
news:13ibnv13qv0s358@corp.supernews.com...
> "pico" <pico.pico.net> wrote
>
>> When I look at pictures from my favourite Photographers like Larry
>> Towell, Koudelka, Burri etc. i always wondered how to achieve this
>> grainy, sharp look even at lower enlargement sizes.

Misatribution. That's not my post.
 >> Stay informed about: sharpness & grain