No P&S for a serious hobbyist?

measekite <inkystinky.TakeThisOut@oem.com> wrote:

: You did not mention the Canon S5 IS and the new soon to be
: released Canon G9.

AFAIK both lack wide angle (28mm or lower).

--
nusharXX.TakeThisOut@operamailYY.comZZ (Remove all XX, YY, ZZ)
 >> Stay informed about: No P&S for a serious hobbyist? 

"Nushar" <nusharXX DeleteThis @operamailYY.comZZ> wrote in message news:200820071806467272%nusharXX@operamailYY.comZZ...
> Living with a very nice film SLR, and a digital p&s, i decided to
> investigate a serious ditial p&s as my travel camera: compact size,
> 28-200 range, manual control.
>
> Frankly, I am disgusted that with so many companies flooding the market
> with so many models that they must be running out of model numbers to
> name them, they have all decided not to offer even a single model that
> will appeal to a serious hobbyist like me!
>
> The cameras with all the feature I want are way too big for the purpose
> (Lumix FZ-18, oLympus 550 SZ). Cameras of manageable size make you
> give up on some important feature: Lumix TZ-3 (no manual control) and
> LX2 (limited telephoto) are probably the best examples.
>
> So, I'll have to decide which feature to give up: compact size (FZ-1,
> manual control (tz-3), telephoto (lx-2 or Leica version). If it is
> telephoto I decide to give up, then I'd also investigate the Ricoh
> models that start at 24mm.
>
> Or I could just wait until somebody offers the first p&s for me. Why
> spend money and still be unhappy? It is not like I don't have any
> cameras to take pictures right now.
>
> --
> nusharXX DeleteThis @operamailYY.comZZ (Remove all XX, YY, ZZ)


You'd HAVE to give up on the 'compact size' unless you can give up zoom size. And
that Oly 550 is really quite small compared to my s6000fd, it's like a s700 (denoted to
be in the "serious" catagory -LOL). But for that insane zoomer I would go with the Oly,
or cut the zoom and spend less on a E900 for compact-ness and serious image quality
(does 9mp raw), which should really be the point of "the hobby". E900 has a good
enough zoom of 32-128mm. Maybe some company makes a slip-on auxiliary lens or
two for it. But don't sterotype "28mm" as being so totaly necessary, please.

--
}<)))*> Giant_Alex
cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com
not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/
 >> Stay informed about: No P&S for a serious hobbyist? 

> You'd HAVE to give up on the 'compact size' unless you can give up zoom size. And
> that Oly 550 is really quite small compared to my s6000fd, it's like a s700 (denoted to
> be in the "serious" catagory -LOL). But for that insane zoomer I would go with the Oly,
> or cut the zoom and spend less on a E900 for compact-ness and serious image quality
> (does 9mp raw), which should really be the point of "the hobby". E900 has a good
> enough zoom of 32-128mm. Maybe some company makes a slip-on auxiliary lens or
> two for it. But don't sterotype "28mm" as being so totaly necessary, please.
>
> --
> }<)))*> Giant_Alex
> cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com
> not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/


Here's the example, slip-on auxiliary lenses and the adapter for them:

ebay's search engine: 230162290331
 >> Stay informed about: No P&S for a serious hobbyist? 

AAvK <Idondodat.DeleteThis@wahoo.com> wrote:

> ...

Thanks. A few points:

(1) I don't need what you call insane zoom, around 200 would be ok. The
rest is bonus, welcome but not required.

(2) I take 28mm as beginning of wide angle. Now, one may say, what
about 29 which is so close? And if that is ok, what's the big deal with
30, and then 31? All of that is fine. If the rest of the package is
compelling, one need not quibble about 27,28, or 29.

Fuji E-90 is a good package which will suit many, but even if I accept
32, the tele end is too short and there are no manual controls: so I am
looking at *three* compromises. I have already determined that in the
present market I need not compromise on more than one feature:
wide-angle, tele, manual control, size.

(3) I realize that given the market, I do have to compromise somewhere
even if there are no technological reasons why a camera with all the
features should not be offered (grrrrrr.....). I am trying to decide
what compromise is most acceptable to me. (Of course, waiting is one
possible compromise as I do have other cameras.)

(4) What I need is one single camera, absolutely no attachments etc.
When I travelled with my film camera (35mm fixed focal length) I seem
to miss the wide angle just a little more often than tele, hence my
goal of at least 28mm. I would *like* to have the option of manual
control, but when deciding what to give up it would be one chip on the
table.

The size, everyone has to handle and decide for themselves. For me,
Canon G7, Panasonic TZ-3, LX-2 would have been acceptable on size.
Like many here, I am waiting to see and handle FZ-18.

--
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 >> Stay informed about: No P&S for a serious hobbyist? 

AAvK <Idondodat.RemoveThis@wahoo.com> wrote:

: Okay now, pay careful attention:

: You must sacrifice that glorious compact size for all the features
: you want...

: I checked for cameras on www.dpreview.com/ using the "feature
: search" for 28 to 200+ - *not one* was a compact, as follows:
:
: Canon PowerShot Pro1 (nice and small, and gone)
: Fujifilm FinePix IS-1 (s9100 size, infra red shooting for police work)
: Fujifilm FinePix S9100
: Fujifilm FinePix S9000 Z (s9100 size)
: Fujifilm FinePix S6000 fd (mine, bigger than the s9100)
: Fujifilm FinePix S8000 fd (not out yet)
: Minolta DiMAGE 7i (gone)
: Minolta DiMAGE 7 (gone)
: Minolta DiMAGE 7Hi (gone)
: Minolta DiMAGE A1 (gone)

OK, now your turn to pay careful attention...

You don't know how to use dpreview.com. Your criteria were not specific
enough and their engine, seeing too many matches, cut the list off at
10 items arranged alphabetically.

If you were even semi-familiar with the market, you'd know even without
dpreview that a few compact cameras do cover 28-200+ range: Panasonic
Lumix DMC-TZ3; DMC-TZ2; Sony DSC-F828. (From my perspective, the first
two lack manual control; the Sony is a special case because of price as
well as weight.)

Not only that, a few ULTRACOMPACT cameras also cover the 28-200 range:
Ricoh Caplio R3; R4; R5; R6. (Again, for me, no manual control.)

Look, I know my requirements. I have plenty of film cameras for the
situations when they'd serve the need. There are good personal reasons
why I am looking for a digital w/ certain features and no attachments.
In search of such a camera I have almost done a dissertation at
dpreview.com!

The cameras you have listed are classified as "SLR-like" at dpreview.
The lightest of this breed with 28-200+ is Panasonic Lumix FZ-18, which
got alphabetically cut off in your list. If you wish, you can look it
up directly or get to it by specifying the weight <500g.

Anyway, I do realize that I have to make a compromise unless I don't
buy a camera for now. I am waiting to look at the FZ-18 before making
those decisions.

I do appreciate your intention to help. However, your "wagging finger"
beginning, manifest ignorance about the market, and the demeanor most
reminiscent of a missionary preaching to cannibals were a bit annoying.

--
nusharXX.RemoveThis@operamailYY.comZZ (Remove all XX, YY, ZZ)
 >> Stay informed about: No P&S for a serious hobbyist? 

On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 23:06:43 +0000, Nushar wrote:

> Living with a very nice film SLR, and a digital p&s, i decided to
> investigate a serious ditial p&s as my travel camera: compact size,
> 28-200 range, manual control.
>
> Frankly, I am disgusted that with so many companies flooding the market
> with so many models that they must be running out of model numbers to
> name them, they have all decided not to offer even a single model that
> will appeal to a serious hobbyist like me!
>
> The cameras with all the feature I want are way too big for the purpose
> (Lumix FZ-18, oLympus 550 SZ). Cameras of manageable size make you
> give up on some important feature: Lumix TZ-3 (no manual control) and
> LX2 (limited telephoto) are probably the best examples.
>
> So, I'll have to decide which feature to give up: compact size (FZ-1,
> manual control (tz-3), telephoto (lx-2 or Leica version). If it is
> telephoto I decide to give up, then I'd also investigate the Ricoh
> models that start at 24mm.
>
> Or I could just wait until somebody offers the first p&s for me. Why
> spend money and still be unhappy? It is not like I don't have any
> cameras to take pictures right now.

FWIW - I've found the Kodak P series to be a nice camera - I bought a P850
last fall - refurb from Kodak's online store. It's not all that compact,
but not bad; has full manual controls available; 12x zoom; saves raw,
tiff,jpeg. May not be right for you, but might be worth a look.
 >> Stay informed about: No P&S for a serious hobbyist? 

> OK, now your turn to pay careful attention...
>
> You don't know how to use dpreview.com. Your criteria were not specific
> enough and their engine, seeing too many matches, cut the list off at
> 10 items arranged alphabetically.
>
> If you were even semi-familiar with the market, you'd know even without
> dpreview that a few compact cameras do cover 28-200+ range: Panasonic
> Lumix DMC-TZ3; DMC-TZ2; Sony DSC-F828. (From my perspective, the first
> two lack manual control; the Sony is a special case because of price as
> well as weight.)
>
> Not only that, a few ULTRACOMPACT cameras also cover the 28-200 range:
> Ricoh Caplio R3; R4; R5; R6. (Again, for me, no manual control.)
>
> Look, I know my requirements. I have plenty of film cameras for the
> situations when they'd serve the need. There are good personal reasons
> why I am looking for a digital w/ certain features and no attachments.
> In search of such a camera I have almost done a dissertation at
> dpreview.com!
>
> The cameras you have listed are classified as "SLR-like" at dpreview.
> The lightest of this breed with 28-200+ is Panasonic Lumix FZ-18, which
> got alphabetically cut off in your list. If you wish, you can look it
> up directly or get to it by specifying the weight <500g.
>
> Anyway, I do realize that I have to make a compromise unless I don't
> buy a camera for now. I am waiting to look at the FZ-18 before making
> those decisions.
>
> I do appreciate your intention to help. However, your "wagging finger"
> beginning, manifest ignorance about the market, and the demeanor most
> reminiscent of a missionary preaching to cannibals were a bit annoying.
>
> --
> nusharXX.RemoveThis@operamailYY.comZZ (Remove all XX, YY, ZZ)


This is not how to respond to people.

And thank you for revealing "who" you are as a person, you worthless disrespectful
cretin!

You are absolutely mentally abnormal psychiatrically. There is a mental illness
named " anti-social " and this a physical brain condition.

YOU SHOULD NEVER treat people who work to help you as though they
were a piece of trash that you simply use, and I'll never reply to you again.
And if I ever do, it will be an interjection in order to cut you down!

You are a complete and total zodiak weakling with a zero level of conscienciousness
OR respect, OR appreciation for the kindness it takes for some to work and
use their personal time to help you out. And in return, YOU absolutely have
no valid opinion whatsoever.

Didn't anyone ever teach you how to "human" when you were growing up???
Or are you merely a Virgo?

--
Giant_Alex
not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/
 >> Stay informed about: No P&S for a serious hobbyist? 

AAvK <Idondodat.DeleteThis@wahoo.com> wrote:


: This is not how to respond to people.
: ...you worthless disrespectful cretin!
: You are absolutely mentally abnormal psychiatrically. There is a mental
: illness named " anti-social " and this a physical brain condition.
:
: YOU SHOULD NEVER treat people who work to help you as though they
: were a piece of trash that you simply use, and I'll never reply to you again.
: And if I ever do, it will be an interjection in order to cut you down!
:
: You are a complete and total zodiak weakling with a zero level of
: conscienciousness OR respect, OR appreciation for the kindness it
: takes for some to work and use their personal time to help you out.
: And in return, YOU absolutely have no valid opinion whatsoever.

Funny how people who wag their finger when they obviously don't know
what they are talking about, suddenly become "touch me not" sensitive
when they are at the receiving end.

All posts in this thread remain for all to see. Each participant here
can evaluate our conduct for himself or herself.

I am appreciative of everyone who offered sincere advice or opinion. Do
you see anybody else foaming and ranting like you are? None of us knows
it all, but we act with that awareness.

--
nusharXX.DeleteThis@operamailYY.comZZ (Remove all XX, YY, ZZ)
 >> Stay informed about: No P&S for a serious hobbyist? 

I wrote:

: The lightest of [SLR-likes] with 28-200+ is Panasonic Lumix FZ-18, which
: got alphabetically cut off in your list. If you wish, you can look it
: up directly or get to it by specifying the weight <500g.

At this point I have to say that the just announced Olympus 560 uz is
also a candidate:

<http://www.dpreview.com/news/0708/07082309olysp560uz.asp>

--
nusharXX DeleteThis @operamailYY.comZZ (Remove all XX, YY, ZZ)
 >> Stay informed about: No P&S for a serious hobbyist? 

> Living with a very nice film SLR, and a digital p&s, i decided to
> investigate a serious ditial p&s as my travel camera: compact size,
> 28-200 range, manual control.
>
> Frankly, I am disgusted that with so many companies flooding the market
> with so many models that they must be running out of model numbers to
> name them, they have all decided not to offer even a single model that
> will appeal to a serious hobbyist like me!
>
> The cameras with all the feature I want are way too big for the purpose
> (Lumix FZ-18, oLympus 550 SZ). Cameras of manageable size make you
> give up on some important feature: Lumix TZ-3 (no manual control) and
> LX2 (limited telephoto) are probably the best examples.
>
> So, I'll have to decide which feature to give up: compact size (FZ-1,
> manual control (tz-3), telephoto (lx-2 or Leica version). If it is
> telephoto I decide to give up, then I'd also investigate the Ricoh
> models that start at 24mm.
>
> Or I could just wait until somebody offers the first p&s for me. Why
> spend money and still be unhappy? It is not like I don't have any
> cameras to take pictures right now.


What you want is difficult to find, and not just because camera
manufacturers are idiots who focus too much on gadgets & spec and not enough
on picture quality.

Because they're able to keep adding & enhancing features on P&S cameras,
it's tempting to believe they can do anything. But the physical limitations
of the small sensor size, *especially* for wide-angle, become the deal
breaker. You & I are spoiled rotten, both of us by our SLRs (you by your
film, me by my Canon 350XT). And we want those same features & quality in a
P&S. And why not?

Because it's darned near impossible to design a wide-angle wide-range zoom
lens for a camera with a tiny sensor that doesn't display quite a bit of
chromatic aberration at the wide end. Even at 35mm it's a problem (about the
only real issue with my Fuji F10 & F30). Thus a severe limitation on picture
quality that can't be overcome with all manner of added features (image
stabilization, raw shooting, manual modes, etc).

My perfect camera would have all the features you want, with slight
modification. I don't need the super-long lens (100-150 at the long end
would be fine) but I'd love to have a 24 at the bottom... but would settle
for a 28. The wide range would be great because I take photos while riding
my bike, and can't take a whole lot of time setting up my shots. Raw mode
would be nice, because you've got more to deal with when correcting exposure
issues. A decent manual mode would be nice, and I'd *love* to have a manual
or fixed-focus option (because, when taking photos while riding, nearly
everything of interest is going to be 20+ feet away). Also long battery life
(the Fuji F30 excels there!) is a must. And I'd be willing to pay extra $$$
for a great lens!!! The lens is absolutely the weakest link in the Fuji F30.
One last thing would be reasonable moisture protection.

So I want it all too! But for top-quality photos, I'm going to have to stick
with my Rebel 350XT. Not because it has better electronics and shooting
modes, but because I can hang a wonderful piece of glass on it.

Sigh. If I'm wrong, and you find that perfect camera, please let me know. I
want it too!

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
 >> Stay informed about: No P&S for a serious hobbyist? 

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:

>> Living with a very nice film SLR, and a digital p&s, i decided to
>> investigate a serious ditial p&s as my travel camera: compact size,
>> 28-200 range, manual control.
>>
>> Frankly, I am disgusted that with so many companies flooding the market
>> with so many models that they must be running out of model numbers to
>> name them, they have all decided not to offer even a single model that
>> will appeal to a serious hobbyist like me!
>>
>> The cameras with all the feature I want are way too big for the purpose
>> (Lumix FZ-18, oLympus 550 SZ). Cameras of manageable size make you
>> give up on some important feature: Lumix TZ-3 (no manual control) and
>> LX2 (limited telephoto) are probably the best examples.
>>
>> So, I'll have to decide which feature to give up: compact size (FZ-1,
>> manual control (tz-3), telephoto (lx-2 or Leica version). If it is
>> telephoto I decide to give up, then I'd also investigate the Ricoh
>> models that start at 24mm.
>>
>> Or I could just wait until somebody offers the first p&s for me. Why
>> spend money and still be unhappy? It is not like I don't have any
>> cameras to take pictures right now.
>
>
> What you want is difficult to find, and not just because camera
> manufacturers are idiots who focus too much on gadgets & spec and not
> enough on picture quality.
>
> Because they're able to keep adding & enhancing features on P&S cameras,
> it's tempting to believe they can do anything. But the physical
> limitations of the small sensor size, *especially* for wide-angle, become
> the deal breaker. You & I are spoiled rotten, both of us by our SLRs (you
> by your film, me by my Canon 350XT). And we want those same features &
> quality in a P&S. And why not?
>
> Because it's darned near impossible to design a wide-angle wide-range zoom
> lens for a camera with a tiny sensor that doesn't display quite a bit of
> chromatic aberration at the wide end. Even at 35mm it's a problem (about
> the only real issue with my Fuji F10 & F30). Thus a severe limitation on
> picture quality that can't be overcome with all manner of added features
> (image stabilization, raw shooting, manual modes, etc).
>
> My perfect camera would have all the features you want, with slight
> modification. I don't need the super-long lens (100-150 at the long end
> would be fine) but I'd love to have a 24 at the bottom... but would settle
> for a 28. The wide range would be great because I take photos while riding
> my bike, and can't take a whole lot of time setting up my shots. Raw mode
> would be nice, because you've got more to deal with when correcting
> exposure issues. A decent manual mode would be nice, and I'd *love* to
> have a manual or fixed-focus option (because, when taking photos while
> riding, nearly everything of interest is going to be 20+ feet away). Also
> long battery life (the Fuji F30 excels there!) is a must. And I'd be
> willing to pay extra $$$ for a great lens!!! The lens is absolutely the
> weakest link in the Fuji F30. One last thing would be reasonable moisture
> protection.
>
> So I want it all too! But for top-quality photos, I'm going to have to
> stick with my Rebel 350XT. Not because it has better electronics and
> shooting modes, but because I can hang a wonderful piece of glass on it.
>
> Sigh. If I'm wrong, and you find that perfect camera, please let me know.
> I want it too!
>
> --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
> www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

Hi,

I would also more settle with your Ideas.... But right now, I will probably
buy one of the chdk-hack-compatible Canon Powershots. So I have the RAW
Format... just most of those Cameras start at 35mm... So I might try with a
conversion lens if that doesnt make it too big. I wait some time, so maybe
the Powershot S80 will be supported soon, which will solve my issues.
The cool thing with the hack is that you can let it set up hyper focal
distance for you and run scripts.

But of course after all, the hack is not such a good solution as some
programs just don't eat the raw format and need a conversion to dng with a
special tool before doing so.

The Powershot G9 will also just start at 35mm
It's really a shame for all Camera manufacturers out there, except maybe
Ricoh and Sigma which at least have an approach to something different.
(Whilst Ricohs Sensor-experiences aren't the best, Sigma just wants to
offer a fixed lens, and not something like any Zoom)

I'm in for the perfect camera too!

- Dennis
 >> Stay informed about: No P&S for a serious hobbyist? 

Olympus SP-560 UZ and Panasonic FZ18 begin at 28mm and seem to offer
many things you want. Ricoh GX100 begins at 24mm.

Sorry, nothing can be done about small sensors. It seems to be a
"cartel" decision not to offer decent size sensors in P&S cameras.
 >> Stay informed about: No P&S for a serious hobbyist? 

> Olympus SP-560 UZ and Panasonic FZ18 begin at 28mm and seem to offer
> many things you want. Ricoh GX100 begins at 24mm.
>
> Sorry, nothing can be done about small sensors. It seems to be a
> "cartel" decision not to offer decent size sensors in P&S cameras.

Not exactly. Larger sensors dictate larger lenses. And larger lenses make
for a... bigger camera. Darn, hate those simple laws of physics.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
 >> Stay informed about: No P&S for a serious hobbyist?