B&W film developing questions

pico wrote:
> "Lawrence Akutagawa" <lakuNOSPAM DeleteThis @sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
> news:REHfj.3070$El5.969@newssvr22.news.prodigy.net...
>
>> My own prediliction is to decant the 500ml container into 1 oz (30 ml)
>> glass amber bottles.
>
> Yep! The bottles with the expressed cap that displaces the last bit of
> Rodinal. Air free. Done that way, Rodinal will last forever.
>
>
I remember back a LONG time ago, Rodinal came in an amber bottle
with a rubber stopper under the cap. Since my father was a doctor, I
got a hold of a large syringe and needle and was able to extract and
measure small amounts of developer without ever adding any air to the
bottle.

I guess that can't be done anymore
 >> Stay informed about: B&W film developing questions 

Richard Knoppow wrote:
>
> Fixer has relatively low capacity for complete fixing and
> complete fixing is important to the lifetime of the
> developed film. The rule of thumb is to discard the fixer
> when _clearing_ time has doubled but IMO this is stretching
> things a bit. Clearing time is measured by fixing out a
> scrap of the film you are working with. Soak the sample in
> water for a couple of minutes before testing it because wet
> film fixes at a different rate than dry film. Test a sample
> when the fixer is first mixed and before its used. Note the
> time it takes for the film to become completely clear. The
> rule of thumb is to fix for twice this time and to discard
> the bath than the clearing time doubles.

Thanks Richard. I'll have to do this. I was just using the times
suggested on the fixer bottle.

From reading your post and Lawrence's I can test by snipping off the
leader of a 35mm roll? Just drop it in some fixer and time how long it
takes to clear?

I also have a roll of 120 Tri-X 400 that I opened just to practice
loading a reel with.

>
> Unless you work with very small quantities of film its
> best to use two successive fixing baths. The film or paper
> is fixed in each bath for half the normal fixing time. The
> first bath does most of the work leaving the second bath
> relatively fresh so it can clean up any unfixed halide.
> After the first bath becomes exhausted its dumped. The
> second bath then becomes the first bath and a new second
> bath is mixed. Kodak has full instructions about this in
> their Darkroom Dataguide booklet.
>
> In addition to your processing method outlined above I
> would add the use of a wash aid. I prefer Kodak Hypo
> Clearing Agent because Kodak has published the details of
> its contents and experimental evidence that it works. I
> believe that Ilford's wash aid is essentially identical. Teh
> wash aid will reduce film washing time from about 30 minutes
> to about 5 minutes. The wash aid can also remove some
> otherwise insoluble fixer reaction products.
>
> Use the wetting agent after washing as you are doing.
> Because the wetting agent can collect gelatin from the film
> and will support mold it should not be saved between
> sessions. It can be used for more than one roll of film but
> should be discarded after you finish working.

So in this workflow it would be develop, stop, fix, hypo, wash, and
wetting agent? In class we washed prints in hypo but not film.

Oh, and regarding grain, my instructor actually suggested that I use
Xtol for now. But during class he told us that we'll get larger, more
noticeable grain if we using something like Rodinal/HC-110. That's why
I'm currently playing with it.

The bigger issue is that I'm getting used to developing at home but
there is no way I'm going to be able to print at home. Does anyone have
any current suggestions on finding a rental darkroom in LA these days?
I'm currently signed up for another B&W class in Burbank, but I'm not
going to have time to these next few months to actually do any
assignments, I just want to print stuff from the last 4 months.

I was thinking about calling up Translight Colors. Anyone heard good or
bad?

Thanks,
Greg
 >> Stay informed about: B&W film developing questions 

"G.T." <getnews1 RemoveThis @dslextreme.com> wrote in message
news:13o36j825t8r910@corp.supernews.com...
snip
> So in this workflow it would be develop, stop, fix, hypo, wash, and
> wetting agent? In class we washed prints in hypo but not film.
>
Just for the record. "fixer" and "hypo" are basically the same thing. I
realize that when you say "hypo", you mean "hypo clearing agent"(sometimes
called "HCA"). The purpose of the hypo clearing agent is to remove the hypo
or fixer from the film or print.

Back in the 'good old days' when prints were actually paper and not
resin-coated plastic stuff, the paper print would soak up a lot of
chemicals. You needed to wash a print for perhaps an hour or so to remove
all the fixer from the porous paper. (Ricard K., please feel free to jump in
and correct me or elaborate-- I'm certain you are far more knowledgeable on
this!). A hypo clearing agent would neutralize the hypo (or fixer), so that
a shorter wash time (perhaps 30 minutes?) would suffice.

Film, being a non-porous material (or certainly less porous than fiber-based
prints) doesn't soak up as much chemistry, so a hypo clearing agent is not
as important. If it's critical to you that your negatives last to the next
millenia, than you may want to use it anyway...!

As for not being able to print at home, there are many people who make do
with printing in a bathroom. Some use a cart (Rubbermaid? Check office
supply or food service supply companies.) to hold their enlarger and store
their chems, trays, and stuff so they can wheel everything into the bathroom
for a session, then wheel it all into a closet for storage. You can put
velcro around the window frame and stick a piece of faric or cardboard over
the window. There is also a gentleman who espouses 'one-tray' processing.
I've never tried it myself, but perhaps for the temporary darkroom, it may
be the answer. Maybe someone here can supply the link to his website, or to
websites for temporary darkrooms. Using the kitchen is also a possibility,
but some people don't like that idea because of the possibility of food
being contaminated-- but for darkroom work, cleanliness is important, so
wipe up those chem spills!
For me, you can take away my permanent darkrooms when you can pry the
staticmaster brush from my cold, dead fingers!
 >> Stay informed about: B&W film developing questions 

Ken Hart wrote:
> "G.T." <getnews1.RemoveThis@dslextreme.com> wrote in message
> news:13o36j825t8r910@corp.supernews.com...
> snip
>> So in this workflow it would be develop, stop, fix, hypo, wash, and
>> wetting agent? In class we washed prints in hypo but not film.
>>
> Just for the record. "fixer" and "hypo" are basically the same thing. I
> realize that when you say "hypo", you mean "hypo clearing agent"(sometimes
> called "HCA"). The purpose of the hypo clearing agent is to remove the hypo
> or fixer from the film or print.
>
> Back in the 'good old days' when prints were actually paper and not
> resin-coated plastic stuff, the paper print would soak up a lot of
> chemicals. You needed to wash a print for perhaps an hour or so to remove
> all the fixer from the porous paper. (Ricard K., please feel free to jump in
> and correct me or elaborate-- I'm certain you are far more knowledgeable on
> this!). A hypo clearing agent would neutralize the hypo (or fixer), so that
> a shorter wash time (perhaps 30 minutes?) would suffice.
>
> Film, being a non-porous material (or certainly less porous than fiber-based
> prints) doesn't soak up as much chemistry, so a hypo clearing agent is not
> as important. If it's critical to you that your negatives last to the next
> millenia, than you may want to use it anyway...!

Ah, cool, thanks for the clarification.

>
> As for not being able to print at home, there are many people who make do
> with printing in a bathroom. Some use a cart (Rubbermaid? Check office
> supply or food service supply companies.) to hold their enlarger and store
> their chems, trays, and stuff so they can wheel everything into the bathroom
> for a session, then wheel it all into a closet for storage. You can put
> velcro around the window frame and stick a piece of faric or cardboard over
> the window. There is also a gentleman who espouses 'one-tray' processing.
> I've never tried it myself, but perhaps for the temporary darkroom, it may
> be the answer. Maybe someone here can supply the link to his website, or to
> websites for temporary darkrooms. Using the kitchen is also a possibility,
> but some people don't like that idea because of the possibility of food
> being contaminated-- but for darkroom work, cleanliness is important, so
> wipe up those chem spills!
> For me, you can take away my permanent darkrooms when you can pry the
> staticmaster brush from my cold, dead fingers!

Thanks for the tips. I could maybe do it in my kitchen but I'd have to
cover a lot of windows, the kitchen is open to the small living and
dining area. And the bathroom, no, I barely have room to stand in it.

Greg
 >> Stay informed about: B&W film developing questions 

On 1/6/2008 9:13 PM Ken Hart spake thus:

> Back in the 'good old days' when prints were actually paper and not
> resin-coated plastic stuff, the paper print would soak up a lot of
> chemicals. You needed to wash a print for perhaps an hour or so to remove
> all the fixer from the porous paper. (Ricard K., please feel free to jump in
> and correct me or elaborate-- I'm certain you are far more knowledgeable on
> this!). A hypo clearing agent would neutralize the hypo (or fixer), so that
> a shorter wash time (perhaps 30 minutes?) would suffice.

Just a small nit: HCA doesn't "neutralize" fixer, it sets up conditions
that make it easier to remove it. As you said, Richard K. can supply all
the gory details.
 >> Stay informed about: B&W film developing questions 

Ken Hart wrote:
> As for not being able to print at home, there are many people who make do
> with printing in a bathroom.

This company makes vertical print processing equipment. You can develop
prints in a very small space with one.

If you are handy with plexiglass and glue, you could probably make a
cheap one from an aquarium. Without a lot of effort, you would have
to lift it up and turn it upside down to empty it, but it may be
good enough.

http://www.novadarkroom.com/cat/31/Print_Processors.html

When I was a teenager, I had to work in a windowless bathroom.
The trays went in the tub, and the enlarger sat on the toilet.

Geoff.
--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm.TakeThisOut@mendelson.com N3OWJ/4X1GM
IL Voice: (07)-7424-1667 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838
Visit my 'blog at http://geoffstechno.livejournal.com/
 >> Stay informed about: B&W film developing questions 

In article <13o3edgqdla9j1f RemoveThis @corp.supernews.com>, G.T.
getnews1 RemoveThis @dslextreme.com says...

> Thanks for the tips. I could maybe do it in my kitchen but I'd have to
> cover a lot of windows, the kitchen is open to the small living and
> dining area. And the bathroom, no, I barely have room to stand in it.
>
As long as there's somewhee to stand the enlarger that's all you really
need - expose the paper, load it in a drum and then process it in the
kitchen in normal light.
 >> Stay informed about: B&W film developing questions 

Rob Morley wrote:
> In article <13o3edgqdla9j1f.RemoveThis@corp.supernews.com>, G.T.
> getnews1.RemoveThis@dslextreme.com says...
>
>> Thanks for the tips. I could maybe do it in my kitchen but I'd have to
>> cover a lot of windows, the kitchen is open to the small living and
>> dining area. And the bathroom, no, I barely have room to stand in it.
>>
> As long as there's somewhee to stand the enlarger that's all you really
> need - expose the paper, load it in a drum and then process it in the
> kitchen in normal light.

Can you point me to daylight print processing equipment? I've been
doing a little Googling but haven't found anything definitive yet, and
when I do, I still won't know what workflow works best.

If I were to use a drum what would I need? Is it similar to processing
film?

Print, load in drum, fill with developer, agitate, empty developer, fill
with stop and agitate, empty, fill with fixer and agitate, empty. Then
hypo clear, wash, and dry?

Would the last paragraph be considered the one tray method?

Thanks,
Greg
 >> Stay informed about: B&W film developing questions 

G.T. wrote:
> Rob Morley wrote:
> If I were to use a drum what would I need? Is it similar to processing
> film?

It depends. The simple ones are drums that are like daylight tanks
for stainless steel reels, they have a light trap at the fill end
that does not depend upon a reel.

You stuff the print in it in the dark, close it up and and develop.
Simple drums get rolled on the table, more complex systems have
rolling machines.

Normally they are used for color because consistent agitation and
temperature control are necessary.

There are all sorts of drums for the rolling machines including one
that holds sheet film in an interrupted spiral. You would use it for
small prints if you want to develop several at a time.

Look up Jobo.

> Print, load in drum, fill with developer, agitate, empty developer, fill
> with stop and agitate, empty, fill with fixer and agitate, empty. Then
> hypo clear, wash, and dry?

Since the steps after printing can be done in daylight with no special
equipment, you may not want to use the drum for them.

Geoff.

--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm.TakeThisOut@mendelson.com N3OWJ/4X1GM
IL Voice: (07)-7424-1667 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838
Visit my 'blog at http://geoffstechno.livejournal.com/
 >> Stay informed about: B&W film developing questions 

Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:
> G.T. wrote:
>> Rob Morley wrote:
>> If I were to use a drum what would I need? Is it similar to processing
>> film?
>
> It depends. The simple ones are drums that are like daylight tanks
> for stainless steel reels, they have a light trap at the fill end
> that does not depend upon a reel.
>
> You stuff the print in it in the dark, close it up and and develop.
> Simple drums get rolled on the table, more complex systems have
> rolling machines.
>
> Normally they are used for color because consistent agitation and
> temperature control are necessary.
>
> There are all sorts of drums for the rolling machines including one
> that holds sheet film in an interrupted spiral. You would use it for
> small prints if you want to develop several at a time.
>
> Look up Jobo.
>
>> Print, load in drum, fill with developer, agitate, empty developer, fill
>> with stop and agitate, empty, fill with fixer and agitate, empty. Then
>> hypo clear, wash, and dry?
>
> Since the steps after printing can be done in daylight with no special
> equipment, you may not want to use the drum for them.
>

Ok, at what step can I switch to daylight equipment? Do I have to stop
and fix a little before switching to daylight? Or can I do the stop and
fix in daylight?

Thanks,
Greg
 >> Stay informed about: B&W film developing questions 

G.T. wrote:
> Ok, at what step can I switch to daylight equipment? Do I have to stop
> and fix a little before switching to daylight? Or can I do the stop and
> fix in daylight?

No, you do the stop and fix in the dark and switch to daylight
for rinse (first wash), hypo clear and wash.

Geoff.


--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm.DeleteThis@mendelson.com N3OWJ/4X1GM
IL Voice: (07)-7424-1667 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838
Visit my 'blog at http://geoffstechno.livejournal.com/
 >> Stay informed about: B&W film developing questions 

Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:
> G.T. wrote:
>> Ok, at what step can I switch to daylight equipment? Do I have to stop
>> and fix a little before switching to daylight? Or can I do the stop and
>> fix in daylight?
>
> No, you do the stop and fix in the dark and switch to daylight
> for rinse (first wash), hypo clear and wash.
>

Thanks. I'll have to start putting a list together and approximate cost
to put this all together.

Greg
 >> Stay informed about: B&W film developing questions 

"G.T." <getnews1 DeleteThis @dslextreme.com> wrote in message
news:13o36j825t8r910@corp.supernews.com...
> Richard Knoppow wrote:
>>
>> Fixer has relatively low capacity for complete fixing
>> and complete fixing is important to the lifetime of the
>> developed film. The rule of thumb is to discard the fixer
>> when _clearing_ time has doubled but IMO this is
>> stretching things a bit. Clearing time is measured by
>> fixing out a scrap of the film you are working with. Soak
>> the sample in water for a couple of minutes before
>> testing it because wet film fixes at a different rate
>> than dry film. Test a sample when the fixer is first
>> mixed and before its used. Note the time it takes for the
>> film to become completely clear. The rule of thumb is to
>> fix for twice this time and to discard the bath than the
>> clearing time doubles.
>
> Thanks Richard. I'll have to do this. I was just using
> the times suggested on the fixer bottle.
>
> From reading your post and Lawrence's I can test by
> snipping off the leader of a 35mm roll? Just drop it in
> some fixer and time how long it takes to clear?
>
> I also have a roll of 120 Tri-X 400 that I opened just to
> practice loading a reel with.
>
Just take a small scrap of the film and soak it in
water for perhaps 2 minutes. Then drop in some of the fixer
and swirl it around. Measure the time it takes to be
visually clear.

>>
>> Unless you work with very small quantities of film its
>> best to use two successive fixing baths. The film or
>> paper is fixed in each bath for half the normal fixing
>> time. The first bath does most of the work leaving the
>> second bath relatively fresh so it can clean up any
>> unfixed halide. After the first bath becomes exhausted
>> its dumped. The second bath then becomes the first bath
>> and a new second bath is mixed. Kodak has full
>> instructions about this in their Darkroom Dataguide
>> booklet.
>>
>> In addition to your processing method outlined above
>> I would add the use of a wash aid. I prefer Kodak Hypo
>> Clearing Agent because Kodak has published the details of
>> its contents and experimental evidence that it works. I
>> believe that Ilford's wash aid is essentially identical.
>> Teh wash aid will reduce film washing time from about 30
>> minutes to about 5 minutes. The wash aid can also remove
>> some otherwise insoluble fixer reaction products.
>>
>> Use the wetting agent after washing as you are doing.
>> Because the wetting agent can collect gelatin from the
>> film and will support mold it should not be saved between
>> sessions. It can be used for more than one roll of film
>> but should be discarded after you finish working.
>
> So in this workflow it would be develop, stop, fix, hypo,
> wash, and wetting agent? In class we washed prints in
> hypo but not film.
>
> Oh, and regarding grain, my instructor actually suggested
> that I use Xtol for now. But during class he told us that
> we'll get larger, more noticeable grain if we using
> something like Rodinal/HC-110. That's why I'm currently
> playing with it.
>
> The bigger issue is that I'm getting used to developing at
> home but there is no way I'm going to be able to print at
> home. Does anyone have any current suggestions on finding
> a rental darkroom in LA these days? I'm currently signed
> up for another B&W class in Burbank, but I'm not going to
> have time to these next few months to actually do any
> assignments, I just want to print stuff from the last 4
> months.
>
> I was thinking about calling up Translight Colors. Anyone
> heard good or bad?
>
> Thanks,
> Greg
>
What is the problem with setting up to print? There may
be a way around this. It is much more satisfactory to do
your own printing so its worth exploring ways to accomplish
it.


--
---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk DeleteThis @ix.netcom.com
 >> Stay informed about: B&W film developing questions