B&W film developing questions

"G.T." wrote

> 1. The Rodinal says undiluted it will last 6 months.
It lasts forever. If you are doing 35mm you may find it
is not that good a choice for most work.

> Can I develop more than one roll of film in my Rodinal?
No.

> 2. The stop is the least of my worries, right?
What, me worry? It's cheap - chuck it when you chuck
the fix.

> 3. What's the expected longevity of the fixer?
If it smells funny (funnier than usual) or throws
a yellow or white precipitate then discard.

I set a limit of 8 rolls/litre of working film-strength.

--
Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Darkroom Automation: F-Stop Timers, Enlarging Meters
http://www.darkroomautomation.com/index.htm
n o lindan at ix dot netcom dot com
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Lawrence Akutagawa wrote:
>
>
> My two bits -
>
> Rodinal is one time use. But you are using 1:25 or 1:50 or even 1:100 such
> that you use so little that the one time use is plenty. No replenishment,
> no multiple use.

Thanks for the confirmation.

>
> My own prediliction is to decant the 500ml container into 1 oz (30 ml) glass
> amber bottles. I keep these tightly capped and use them in succession. No
> problem at all. Way back when, I recall a story about a partially used
> bottle of Rodinal found in the late 1940s/early 1950s amongst the bombed
> ruins during the German reconstruction. Turned out the contents were as
> good as new, despite the summer heat and the winter cold.
>
> I don't use any commercial stop. I use two successive water rinses instead.
>
> The rule of thumb with fixers is in room light to toss a piece of
> undeveloped film scrap into the fixer - for 35mm, the leader/trailer of the
> roll is ideal. Time how long it takes for the film to clear. Fix for
> double that time. When the fixing period extends more than 10-12 minutes or
> so, time for mix new fixer. Keep the fixer in a dark, cool place.

Awesome. Thanks for the tip about the fixer.

Greg
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In article ,
G.T. wrote:
>Ok, I just developed my first 3 rolls of film at home, and except for a
>little bit of dust on the last roll the results are excellent. I'll
>sporadically be developing more over the next couple of months.
>
>I'm using Rodinal, Arista's indicator stop bath, Arista's Universal
>non-hardening fixer, and Kentflo.
>
>Questions:
>
>1. The Rodinal says undiluted it will last 6 months. Can I be safe to
>assume it will last that long?
>
>Also, with the Rodinal I've been developing only one roll per mix
>because I'm new at this. With Accufine, the previous developer I used,
>I would do a couple of rolls in one canister before dumping back into my
>storage container and replenishing. And after 3 months at the same
>developing time my negs were a little light.
>
>Can I develop more than one roll of film in my Rodinal?

Sure, if you want inconsistent results. Maintaining a replenished
developer system for black and white work really requires a lot more
care than most people realize. It is seldom worth the effort. What
you actually want to do is buy a *larger tank* so you can develop more
than one roll of film at a time, instead of messing around with
replenishing the developer.

I would call both Accufine and Rodinal poor choices of developer for
general use (though each has its own set of special purposes for which
it works well). You might want to try D-76 or ID-11, or one of the
newer developers like Xtol or DD-X.

--
Thor Lancelot Simon tls.TakeThisOut@rek.tjls.com

"The inconsistency is startling, though admittedly, if consistency is to
be abandoned or transcended, there is no problem." - Noam Chomsky
 >> Stay informed about: B&W film developing questions 

Thor Lancelot Simon wrote:
> In article ,
> G.T. wrote:
>>
>>
>> Can I develop more than one roll of film in my Rodinal?
>
> Sure, if you want inconsistent results. Maintaining a replenished
> developer system for black and white work really requires a lot more
> care than most people realize. It is seldom worth the effort. What
> you actually want to do is buy a *larger tank* so you can develop more
> than one roll of film at a time, instead of messing around with
> replenishing the developer.

I have a bigger tank but still am such a novice that I want to keep
doing one roll at a time.

>
> I would call both Accufine and Rodinal poor choices of developer for
> general use (though each has its own set of special purposes for which
> it works well). You might want to try D-76 or ID-11, or one of the
> newer developers like Xtol or DD-X.

My instructor suggested D-76 or Xtol, but he mentioned that I'd get good
grain from the Rodinal so I wanted to give it a shot.

Greg
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On 1/5/2008 10:00 AM G.T. spake thus:

> Thor Lancelot Simon wrote:
>
>> I would call both Accufine and Rodinal poor choices of developer for
>> general use (though each has its own set of special purposes for which
>> it works well). You might want to try D-76 or ID-11, or one of the
>> newer developers like Xtol or DD-X.
>
> My instructor suggested D-76 or Xtol, but he mentioned that I'd get good
> grain from the Rodinal so I wanted to give it a shot.

If by "good grain" you mean "grain that you can't help but notice in the
print", then that's correct. As others have pointed out, it's completely
a personal preference, but you're not likely to get smooth-looking
results with Rodinal.

I'd try D-76, diluted 1+1. Or even the good old Microdol-X for finer
grain (albeit a bit "mushier"). Best to experiment, try every
combination (within reason) until you find what you like.
 >> Stay informed about: B&W film developing questions 

"G.T." wrote in message

> Thor Lancelot Simon wrote:
>> In article ,
>> G.T. wrote:
>>>
>>> Can I develop more than one roll of film in my Rodinal?
>>
>> Sure, if you want inconsistent results. Maintaining a replenished
>> developer system for black and white work really requires a lot more
>> care than most people realize. It is seldom worth the effort. What
>> you actually want to do is buy a *larger tank* so you can develop more
>> than one roll of film at a time, instead of messing around with
>> replenishing the developer.
>
> I have a bigger tank but still am such a novice that I want to keep doing
> one roll at a time.
>
>> I would call both Accufine and Rodinal poor choices of developer for
>> general use (though each has its own set of special purposes for which
>> it works well). You might want to try D-76 or ID-11, or one of the
>> newer developers like Xtol or DD-X.
>
> My instructor suggested D-76 or Xtol, but he mentioned that I'd get good
> grain from the Rodinal so I wanted to give it a shot.

Rodinal with slower film - up to and including ISO 100/125 - is superb.
Ilford PanF and PanF+ with Rodinal is wonderful. Try 11 minutes at 1:50, 68
degrees F/20 degrees C, constant agitation first 30 sec and agitation 5 sec
out of 30 sec thereafter. And with the faster films - ISO 400 and up -
you'll get very sharp...as contrasted to mushy...grain. Great for the kind
of portraiture I like.

There are folks who don't like Rodinal. That's okay. After all, some folks
don't like Chevrolets and others don't like Toyotas. The key is to try
Rodinal. If you like the results, great. If you don't like the results,
look for something else.
 >> Stay informed about: B&W film developing questions 

In article ,
G.T. wrote:
>Thor Lancelot Simon wrote:
>> In article ,
>> G.T. wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Can I develop more than one roll of film in my Rodinal?
>>
>> Sure, if you want inconsistent results. Maintaining a replenished
>> developer system for black and white work really requires a lot more
>> care than most people realize. It is seldom worth the effort. What
>> you actually want to do is buy a *larger tank* so you can develop more
>> than one roll of film at a time, instead of messing around with
>> replenishing the developer.
>
>I have a bigger tank but still am such a novice that I want to keep
>doing one roll at a time.

I don't understand: developing one roll at a time will give you as much
variation between rolls as possible, but what you should be aiming for is
consistency: the exact same, predictable development results every time.
A three or five-roll tank will give you three or five rolls at a time
developed exactly the same way.

>My instructor suggested D-76 or Xtol, but he mentioned that I'd get good
>grain from the Rodinal so I wanted to give it a shot.

What does "good grain" mean? Certainly Rodinal will give you grainy
results. It will also cost you a great deal of film speed. There is a
myth that circulates that Rodinal is a fine-grain developer -- it is
quite certainly _not_ that. Rather, it is a developer that produces such
grainy results that it's only suitable for very fine-grain films, ISO 100
or slower. The problem, of course, is that it also reduces true film
speed by as much as one full stop -- so in practice, you end up with 50
speed film, at most, and then you need a tripod, unless you're shooting
snowscapes at noon.

--
Thor Lancelot Simon tls.RemoveThis@rek.tjls.com

"The inconsistency is startling, though admittedly, if consistency is to
be abandoned or transcended, there is no problem." - Noam Chomsky
 >> Stay informed about: B&W film developing questions 

Thor Lancelot Simon wrote:
> In article ,
> G.T. wrote:
>> Thor Lancelot Simon wrote:
>>> In article ,
>>> G.T. wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Can I develop more than one roll of film in my Rodinal?
>>> Sure, if you want inconsistent results. Maintaining a replenished
>>> developer system for black and white work really requires a lot more
>>> care than most people realize. It is seldom worth the effort. What
>>> you actually want to do is buy a *larger tank* so you can develop more
>>> than one roll of film at a time, instead of messing around with
>>> replenishing the developer.
>> I have a bigger tank but still am such a novice that I want to keep
>> doing one roll at a time.
>
> I don't understand: developing one roll at a time will give you as much
> variation between rolls as possible, but what you should be aiming for is
> consistency: the exact same, predictable development results every time.
> A three or five-roll tank will give you three or five rolls at a time
> developed exactly the same way.

Right, but I'm still too worried that I'll screw up 5 rolls at a time by
doing something really stupid like popping the top off of my tank
while agitating. Once I get on a roll I'll switch to my 3 roll tank.

>
>> My instructor suggested D-76 or Xtol, but he mentioned that I'd get good
>> grain from the Rodinal so I wanted to give it a shot.
>
> What does "good grain" mean? Certainly Rodinal will give you grainy
> results. It will also cost you a great deal of film speed. There is a
> myth that circulates that Rodinal is a fine-grain developer -- it is
> quite certainly _not_ that. Rather, it is a developer that produces such
> grainy results that it's only suitable for very fine-grain films, ISO 100
> or slower. The problem, of course, is that it also reduces true film
> speed by as much as one full stop -- so in practice, you end up with 50
> speed film, at most, and then you need a tripod, unless you're shooting
> snowscapes at noon.

Cool. As you can tell I'm very new at this and for my class last year
we just used a quart of Accufine replenishing along the way. I'm still
very early into my experimenting and learning phase.

Greg
 >> Stay informed about: B&W film developing questions 

In article ,
"Lawrence Akutagawa" wrote:
>
> There are folks who don't like Rodinal. That's okay. After all, some folks
> don't like Chevrolets and others don't like Toyotas. The key is to try
> Rodinal. If you like the results, great. If you don't like the results,
> look for something else.

I my mind's eye Rodinal creates a tonal scale at 1;50 & 1:100 close to
PMK without the stain, so it ends up a little more grainy in appearance.
And of course less toxic.

--
Reality is a picture perfected and never looking back.
 >> Stay informed about: B&W film developing questions 

In article ,
David Nebenzahl wrote:
>
> but you're not likely to get smooth-looking
> results with Rodinal.

I think that really depends. Some films unquestionably are not going to
give the photographer tight grain "small clumps" when processed using
Rodinal. However T grain films should work well with Rodinal especially
when using 1:50 & 1:100 dilutions.

--
Reality is a picture perfected and never looking back.
 >> Stay informed about: B&W film developing questions 

In article ,
tls DeleteThis @panix.com (Thor Lancelot Simon) wrote:

> The problem, of course, is that it also reduces true film
> speed by as much as one full stop -- so in practice, you end up with 50
> speed film, at most, and then you need a tripod, unless you're shooting
> snowscapes at noon.

Define film speed Reduces? of just shows the speed of older emulsions
for what they really are?

--
Reality is a picture perfected and never looking back.
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"____" wrote in message

> In article ,
> tls.RemoveThis@panix.com (Thor Lancelot Simon) wrote:
>
>> The problem, of course, is that it also reduces true film
>> speed by as much as one full stop -- so in practice, you
>> end up with 50
>> speed film, at most, and then you need a tripod, unless
>> you're shooting
>> snowscapes at noon.
>
> Define film speed Reduces? of just shows the speed of
> older emulsions
> for what they really are?
>
The published speeds of films are determined by a well
controlled standard method. The speed does vary with the
developer and the current ISO standard requires that the
published speed note the type of developer used for the
test. The total variation of speed with developer type is
not very great, its limits are probably no more than + or -
about 3/4 to one stop. The fastest speeds are obtained from
developers with Phenidone or its derivatives (but not all
Phenidone developers increase speed) such as T-Max and T-Max
RS, Xtol, or Ilford Microphen. The lowest speeds from
extra-fine-grain developers like Microdol-X or Ilford
Perceptol either at full strength. Developers like D-76 fall
into the middle somewhere with the speed increasing
developers yeilding about 3/4 stop more speed and the
extra-fine-grain developers about 3/4 stop less speed. When
diluted the extra-fine-grain developers mentioned above
deliver about the same speed as D-76 but loose their
extra-fine-grain property and deliver grain also about the
same as D-76.
Rodinal delivers somewhat less speed than D-76 but not
much, maybe 1/2 stop. Generally the underexposure latitude
of most films will accomodate this.
Note that the ISO standard is designed to calculate the
minimum exposure that results in good tone rendition of
shadows. The reason is to minimise grain, which generally
increases with density, and to maximize sharpness. sharpness
is decreased by "irradiation" which is the spreading out of
highlights in the negative due to internal reflection in the
emulsion. Modern emulsions are not as vulnerable to either
of these effects as the films made when the standard was
designed.
For many purposes the tone rendition can be improved by
increasing exposure a bit, usually reducing speed by about
20% will do it. But, of course, the exposure is due not only
to the film speed by the method of metering and decisions
made by the photographer as to what consitutes the shadow
areas of the scene being photographed where he/she wants
detail.
Note that the ISO standard being discussed applies only
to B&W still negative film, there are different standards
for motion picture films, color films, transparency films,
etc.
Rodinal is a good, general purpose, developer whose main
virtue is its convenience and reliability. It delivers good
tone rendition from most films at the cost of somewhat more
grain than developers like D-76 or Xtol but the T-Max
developers and Microphen are nearly as grainy.
Rodinal tends to produce somewhat finer grain when its
diluted. I generally use it at around 1:50 but that is also
to get convenient times for the films I work with.
My "standard" developer for most work is D-76 diluted
1:1 and used once. I also use Microdol-X or Perceptol full
strength for 35mm 100T-Max because the combination delivers
extremely fine grain with reasonable speed.


--
---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk.RemoveThis@ix.netcom.com
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"G.T." wrote in message

> Ok, I just developed my first 3 rolls of film at home, and
> except for a little bit of dust on the last roll the
> results are excellent. I'll sporadically be developing
> more over the next couple of months.
>
> I'm using Rodinal, Arista's indicator stop bath, Arista's
> Universal non-hardening fixer, and Kentflo.
>
> Questions:
>
> 1. The Rodinal says undiluted it will last 6 months. Can
> I be safe to assume it will last that long?
>
> Also, with the Rodinal I've been developing only one roll
> per mix because I'm new at this. With Accufine, the
> previous developer I used, I would do a couple of rolls in
> one canister before dumping back into my storage container
> and replenishing. And after 3 months at the same
> developing time my negs were a little light.
>
> Can I develop more than one roll of film in my Rodinal?
>
> 2. The stop is the least of my worries, right? It should
> be ok for a couple dozen rolls over the next couple of
> months?
>
> 3. What's the expected longevity of the fixer?
>
> Thanks,
> Greg

Rodinal has a very long life. It can turn nearly black
and still work. The working solution should be used only
once and discarded. While the used developer will still
develop it will be hard to predict the results. However, if
the amount of solution is reasonably large you can probably
get a second roll by increasing time by about 20%.

You can re-use the stop bath in a single session as long
as it remains acid (the indicator will show this) but its
not good practice to save it between sessions.

Fixer has relatively low capacity for complete fixing and
complete fixing is important to the lifetime of the
developed film. The rule of thumb is to discard the fixer
when _clearing_ time has doubled but IMO this is stretching
things a bit. Clearing time is measured by fixing out a
scrap of the film you are working with. Soak the sample in
water for a couple of minutes before testing it because wet
film fixes at a different rate than dry film. Test a sample
when the fixer is first mixed and before its used. Note the
time it takes for the film to become completely clear. The
rule of thumb is to fix for twice this time and to discard
the bath than the clearing time doubles.

Unless you work with very small quantities of film its
best to use two successive fixing baths. The film or paper
is fixed in each bath for half the normal fixing time. The
first bath does most of the work leaving the second bath
relatively fresh so it can clean up any unfixed halide.
After the first bath becomes exhausted its dumped. The
second bath then becomes the first bath and a new second
bath is mixed. Kodak has full instructions about this in
their Darkroom Dataguide booklet.

In addition to your processing method outlined above I
would add the use of a wash aid. I prefer Kodak Hypo
Clearing Agent because Kodak has published the details of
its contents and experimental evidence that it works. I
believe that Ilford's wash aid is essentially identical. Teh
wash aid will reduce film washing time from about 30 minutes
to about 5 minutes. The wash aid can also remove some
otherwise insoluble fixer reaction products.

Use the wetting agent after washing as you are doing.
Because the wetting agent can collect gelatin from the film
and will support mold it should not be saved between
sessions. It can be used for more than one roll of film but
should be discarded after you finish working.


--
---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk.DeleteThis@ix.netcom.com


Similar advice applies to paper development.
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