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not34

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Since: Dec 26, 2004
Posts: 26



(Msg. 1) Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 10:55 am
Post subject: B&W Hollywood style portraits.
Archived from groups: rec>photo>darkroom (more info?)

I want to have a go at taking some studio portraits in a similar style of
what you sometimes see in photo magazines of 1930s and 1940s Hollywood movie
stars.
I like lighting that gives good but not too harsh contrast and with
distinct shadows when using B&W film, choosing the right lighting
accessories is important and I am not sure whether flash/strobe lighting is
suitable or whether I should use continuous lighting instead. I will be
using a medium format camera, probably with FP4 plus film although I am open
to suggestions. Can anyone help with the lighting technique to replicate
similar results?
I know this is a darkroom newsgroup, but I am sure there are some excellent
portrait photographers out there who have subscribed to this newsgroup who
can help. Any advice would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Keith.

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bugstopped_

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Since: Sep 23, 2004
Posts: 404



(Msg. 2) Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 12:55 pm
Post subject: Re: B&W Hollywood style portraits. [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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In article <42514a98$1_2@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com>,
"Keith Tapscott" <not.DeleteThis@home.com> wrote:

 > I want to have a go at taking some studio portraits in a similar style of
 > what you sometimes see in photo magazines of 1930s and 1940s Hollywood movie
 > stars.
 > I like lighting that gives good but not too harsh contrast and with
 > distinct shadows when using B&W film, choosing the right lighting
 > accessories is important and I am not sure whether flash/strobe lighting is
 > suitable or whether I should use continuous lighting instead. I will be
 > using a medium format camera, probably with FP4 plus film although I am open
 > to suggestions. Can anyone help with the lighting technique to replicate
 > similar results?
 > I know this is a darkroom newsgroup, but I am sure there are some excellent
 > portrait photographers out there who have subscribed to this newsgroup who
 > can help. Any advice would be appreciated.
 > Thanks,
 > Keith.

In theory you could use either flash or continuous, You might want to use
direct light with something like barn doors on the unit as opposed to
diffused umbrella or soft box light. Careful balance of ambient light in
addition to your studio light source, an spill the light off the edges of
the barn door to create shadows of interest. If your unsure of the way to
get a desired result, use continuous and a patient model, down side
those lights get hot to work with and around. Reading a few lighting
books might help also. If you use flash make sure you have Poloroid
if possible.

--
LF Website @ <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank" target="_blank">http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank</a>

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong,
is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->

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UC

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Since: Feb 25, 2005
Posts: 62



(Msg. 3) Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:52 pm
Post subject: Re: B&W Hollywood style portraits. [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Those portraits were made with 8x10 and 11x14 sheet film and heavily
retouched. You cannot duplicate those results with roll film.


Keith Tapscott wrote:
 > I want to have a go at taking some studio portraits in a similar
style of
 > what you sometimes see in photo magazines of 1930s and 1940s
Hollywood movie
 > stars.
 > I like lighting that gives good but not too harsh contrast and with
 > distinct shadows when using B&W film, choosing the right lighting
 > accessories is important and I am not sure whether flash/strobe
lighting is
 > suitable or whether I should use continuous lighting instead. I will
be
 > using a medium format camera, probably with FP4 plus film although I
am open
 > to suggestions. Can anyone help with the lighting technique to
replicate
 > similar results?
 > I know this is a darkroom newsgroup, but I am sure there are some
excellent
 > portrait photographers out there who have subscribed to this
newsgroup who
 > can help. Any advice would be appreciated.
 > Thanks,
 > Keith.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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nospam777

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Since: Oct 28, 2004
Posts: 720



(Msg. 4) Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 3:55 pm
Post subject: Re: B&W Hollywood style portraits. [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Keith Tapscott wrote:
 >
 > I want to have a go at taking some studio portraits in a similar style of
 > what you sometimes see in photo magazines of 1930s and 1940s Hollywood movie
 > stars.
 > I like lighting that gives good but not too harsh contrast and with
 > distinct shadows when using B&W film, choosing the right lighting
 > accessories is important and I am not sure whether flash/strobe lighting is
 > suitable or whether I should use continuous lighting instead.

If your intent is to recreate Hollywood glamour effects
you won't want to use strobe. Tungsten is what was used
to create this effect. Flash just doesn't have the same
look. You might also consider George Hurrell was a
retouching artist and did a great deal of that to his
classic photographs of hollywood stars. He used a single
main incandescent key light, but then shaped the lighting
using additional lights. A guy named Mark Vieira has a
book on Hurrell (Hurrell's Hollywood Portraits.)
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.thestarlightstudio.com/hhppage.htm" target="_blank">http://www.thestarlightstudio.com/hhppage.htm</a>

 > I will be
 > using a medium format camera, probably with FP4 plus film although I am open
 > to suggestions. Can anyone help with the lighting technique to replicate
 > similar results?
 > I know this is a darkroom newsgroup, but I am sure there are some excellent
 > portrait photographers out there who have subscribed to this newsgroup who
 > can help. Any advice would be appreciated.
 > Thanks,
 > Keith.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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user1231

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Since: Mar 09, 2004
Posts: 78



(Msg. 5) Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 5:16 pm
Post subject: Re: B&W Hollywood style portraits. [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Tom Phillips wrote:

 >
 >
 > If your intent is to recreate Hollywood glamour effects
 > you won't want to use strobe. Tungsten is what was used
 > to create this effect. Flash just doesn't have the same
 > look. You might also consider George Hurrell was a
 > retouching artist and did a great deal of that to his
 > classic photographs of hollywood stars. He used a single
 > main incandescent key light, but then shaped the lighting
 > using additional lights. A guy named Mark Vieira has a
 > book on Hurrell (Hurrell's Hollywood Portraits.)
<font color=purple> > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.thestarlightstudio.com/hhppage.htm</font" target="_blank">http://www.thestarlightstudio.com/hhppage.htm</font</a>>
 >
 >

It's true that Hurrell used coninuous output lights, and it's also true
that film responds differently to different types of lighting (strobe,
tungsten, fluroscent...). Nonetheless, light source size and position
matter most for the character of lighting. So flashes with appropriate
reflectors will give results with a very similar character to tungsten
movie lights. Morever, tungsten movie lights are very difficult on the
model if he/she has to look near them. Movie stars of the golden area
were used to this type of thing, and they paid for it with such maladies
as "klieg eyes", but modern models will probably not be. Moreover, movie
lights are hot, and you need to use screens to protect the model if the
halogen lightbulb were to shatter. My experience shooting "Hurrell"
style has been that I prefer flash. Flash also helps limit problems with
subject movement. (In my case, I used an 8x10 studio portrait camera
with a Veritas lens. Like Hurrell, I prefer to stop this lens down to at
least f11 or f16. Even with HP5+ and a 2000 watt "blonde" mainlight, I
had fairly long exposures.)

As someone alluded to already, Hurrell, or his assitant, would spend
hours retouching the negatives, mainly with pencils. He often had his
models wear only eye and lip makeup, as heavy retoucing where models
used foundation would lead to "plastic" looking skin. In one of the
recent books on Hurrell, there is an example of a print from an
unretouched negative of Joan Crawford next to one from a retouched
negative. There's a huge difference!

-Peter
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.desmidt.net" target="_blank">www.desmidt.net</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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nospam777

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Since: Oct 28, 2004
Posts: 720



(Msg. 6) Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 5:16 pm
Post subject: Re: B&W Hollywood style portraits. [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Peter De Smidt wrote:
 >
 > Tom Phillips wrote:
 >
  > >
  > >
  > > If your intent is to recreate Hollywood glamour effects
  > > you won't want to use strobe. Tungsten is what was used
  > > to create this effect. Flash just doesn't have the same
  > > look. You might also consider George Hurrell was a
  > > retouching artist and did a great deal of that to his
  > > classic photographs of hollywood stars. He used a single
  > > main incandescent key light, but then shaped the lighting
  > > using additional lights. A guy named Mark Vieira has a
  > > book on Hurrell (Hurrell's Hollywood Portraits.)
<font color=green>  > > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.thestarlightstudio.com/hhppage.htm</font" target="_blank">http://www.thestarlightstudio.com/hhppage.htm</font</a>>
  > >
 >
 > It's true that Hurrell used coninuous output lights, and it's also true
 > that film responds differently to different types of lighting (strobe,
 > tungsten, fluroscent...). Nonetheless, light source size and position
 > matter most for the character of lighting. So flashes with appropriate
 > reflectors will give results with a very similar character to tungsten
 > movie lights.

Well, similar style is different from recreating. Given Hurrell's
retouching played a major role, similar lighting style is easier
to achieve. Nevertheless, there will be a different look and feel.

 > Morever, tungsten movie lights are very difficult on the
 > model if he/she has to look near them. Movie stars of the golden area
 > were used to this type of thing, and they paid for it with such maladies
 > as "klieg eyes", but modern models will probably not be. Moreover, movie
 > lights are hot, and you need to use screens to protect the model if the
 > halogen lightbulb were to shatter. My experience shooting "Hurrell"
 > style has been that I prefer flash. Flash also helps limit problems with
 > subject movement. (In my case, I used an 8x10 studio portrait camera
 > with a Veritas lens. Like Hurrell, I prefer to stop this lens down to at
 > least f11 or f16. Even with HP5+ and a 2000 watt "blonde" mainlight, I
 > had fairly long exposures.)
 >
 > As someone alluded to already, Hurrell, or his assitant, would spend
 > hours retouching the negatives, mainly with pencils. He often had his
 > models wear only eye and lip makeup, as heavy retoucing where models
 > used foundation would lead to "plastic" looking skin. In one of the
 > recent books on Hurrell, there is an example of a print from an
 > unretouched negative of Joan Crawford next to one from a retouched
 > negative. There's a huge difference!
 >
 > -Peter
<font color=purple> > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.desmidt.net</font" target="_blank">www.desmidt.net</font</a>><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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jjs2

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Since: Nov 30, 2004
Posts: 415



(Msg. 7) Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 8:11 pm
Post subject: Re: B&W Hollywood style portraits. [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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user1231

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Since: Mar 09, 2004
Posts: 78



(Msg. 8) Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 9:03 pm
Post subject: Re: B&W Hollywood style portraits. [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Tom Phillips wrote:

 >
 >
 > Well, similar style is different from recreating. Given Hurrell's
 > retouching played a major role, similar lighting style is easier
 > to achieve. Nevertheless, there will be a different look and feel.
 >

If by "recreating" you mean something like 'using Hurrell's techniques
as closely as possible', then you'll need to use a studio 8x10, his film
and developer, along with the type of lights that he used, which are
different from, say, current ARRI fresnels. There's nothing wrong with
attempting this, although one would never get it exact.

If, on the other hand, "recreating" means 'making photographs that look
very much like ones Hurrell took' than you can achieve such things with
flash. Consulting something like _Light - Science and Magic : An
Introduction to Photographic Lighting_ by Fil Hunter and Paul Fugua will
tell you why.

-Peter
Who actually has done portraits with an 8x10 Century Graphic studio
camera, a 16" Veritas lens, movie lights, and strobes.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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nospam777

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Since: Oct 28, 2004
Posts: 720



(Msg. 9) Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 12:06 am
Post subject: Re: B&W Hollywood style portraits. [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Peter De Smidt wrote:
 >
 > Tom Phillips wrote:
 >
  > >
  > >
  > > Well, similar style is different from recreating. Given Hurrell's
  > > retouching played a major role, similar lighting style is easier
  > > to achieve. Nevertheless, there will be a different look and feel.
  > >
 >
 > If by "recreating" you mean something like 'using Hurrell's techniques
 > as closely as possible', then you'll need to use a studio 8x10, his film
 > and developer, along with the type of lights that he used, which are
 > different from, say, current ARRI fresnels. There's nothing wrong with
 > attempting this, although one would never get it exact.

Lights can be found; don't think you need 8x10.

 > If, on the other hand, "recreating" means 'making photographs that look
 > very much like ones Hurrell took' than you can achieve such things with
 > flash. Consulting something like _Light - Science and Magic : An
 > Introduction to Photographic Lighting_ by Fil Hunter and Paul Fugua will
 > tell you why.

Like you said, you can get a similar style.

 > -Peter
 > Who actually has done portraits with an 8x10 Century Graphic studio
 > camera, a 16" Veritas lens, movie lights, and strobes.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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nospam777

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Since: Oct 28, 2004
Posts: 720



(Msg. 10) Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 12:07 am
Post subject: Re: B&W Hollywood style portraits. [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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jjs wrote:
 >
 > "Tom Phillips" <nospam777.TakeThisOut@aol.com> wrote
 >
  > > If your intent is to recreate Hollywood glamour effects
  > > you won't want to use strobe. Tungsten is what was used
  > > to create this effect. Flash just doesn't have the same
  > > look.
 >
 > As usual, Tom Fill-Lips is full of it. You definitely can reproduce the
 > results with electronic flash. You will find that you have to open the
 > aperture, but especially recreate the color range of the originals.


and the diff between you and scarpitti is what?
(besides knowing nothing photographically...)<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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John

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Since: Mar 28, 2005
Posts: 23



(Msg. 11) Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 6:03 am
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On Mon, 4 Apr 2005 15:12:46 +0100, "Keith Tapscott" <not.RemoveThis@home.com> wrote:

 > I like lighting that gives good but not too harsh contrast and with
 >distinct shadows when using B&W film, choosing the right lighting
 >accessories is important and I am not sure whether flash/strobe lighting is
 >suitable or whether I should use continuous lighting instead. I will be
 >using a medium format camera, probably with FP4 plus film although I am open
 >to suggestions. Can anyone help with the lighting technique to replicate
 >similar results?

  I suggest you review

  http://www.garageglamour.com/tips/articles/chiaroscuro/chiaroscuro.php

  And the FP4+ along with D76 will work quite well.


John - <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.puresilver.org" target="_blank">http://www.puresilver.org</a>

"Are you planning on accepting the new definition of photography?" - Frank
"Just as soon as humanity accepts a new definition of the term humanity." - John<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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not34

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Since: Dec 26, 2004
Posts: 26



(Msg. 12) Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 6:55 am
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"UC" <uraniumcommittee DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1112651522.386313.231470@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
 > Those portraits were made with 8x10 and 11x14 sheet film and heavily
 > retouched. You cannot duplicate those results with roll film.

May be not, but it is the lighting technique that I am particularly
interested in. As for sheet film, I am able to borrow an 11 x 14 Gandolfi if
needed. In which case I would probably use HP5 plus or 320TXP souped in D-76
and contact printed on to Kentmere bromide or Ilford Multigrade FB.
(Provided I can get hold of the film sheets in the UK).
The trouble is, I have never used a sheet film camera before, let alone a
monster of this size. Perhaps I will stick with the Mamiya.
Thanks.
 >
 >
 > Keith Tapscott wrote:
  >> I want to have a go at taking some studio portraits in a similar
 > style of
  >> what you sometimes see in photo magazines of 1930s and 1940s
 > Hollywood movie
  >> stars.
  >> I like lighting that gives good but not too harsh contrast and with
  >> distinct shadows when using B&W film, choosing the right lighting
  >> accessories is important and I am not sure whether flash/strobe
 > lighting is
  >> suitable or whether I should use continuous lighting instead. I will
 > be
  >> using a medium format camera, probably with FP4 plus film although I
 > am open
  >> to suggestions. Can anyone help with the lighting technique to
 > replicate
  >> similar results?
  >> I know this is a darkroom newsgroup, but I am sure there are some
 > excellent
  >> portrait photographers out there who have subscribed to this
 > newsgroup who
  >> can help. Any advice would be appreciated.
  >> Thanks,
  >> Keith.
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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mikeking

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Since: Jun 30, 2004
Posts: 328



(Msg. 13) Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 9:17 am
Post subject: Re: B&W Hollywood style portraits. [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Google George Hurrell, he used continuous lighting (all he had when he
started) and he defined the style you are looking for. And continuous
lighting is much easier for the novice. You'll need at least one spot but
look for a used one. And make sure your model doesn't "melt" under all that
hot light.

--
darkroommike

----------
"Keith Tapscott" <not.TakeThisOut@home.com> wrote in message
news:42514a98$1_2@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com...
 > I want to have a go at taking some studio portraits in a similar style of
 > what you sometimes see in photo magazines of 1930s and 1940s Hollywood
movie
 > stars.
 > I like lighting that gives good but not too harsh contrast and with
 > distinct shadows when using B&W film, choosing the right lighting
 > accessories is important and I am not sure whether flash/strobe lighting
is
 > suitable or whether I should use continuous lighting instead. I will be
 > using a medium format camera, probably with FP4 plus film although I am
open
 > to suggestions. Can anyone help with the lighting technique to replicate
 > similar results?
 > I know this is a darkroom newsgroup, but I am sure there are some
excellent
 > portrait photographers out there who have subscribed to this newsgroup who
 > can help. Any advice would be appreciated.
 > Thanks,
 > Keith.
 >
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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nospam777

External


Since: Oct 28, 2004
Posts: 720



(Msg. 14) Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 1:36 pm
Post subject: Re: B&W Hollywood style portraits. [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Keith Tapscott wrote:
 >
 > "UC" <uraniumcommittee RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
 > news:1112651522.386313.231470@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
  > > Those portraits were made with 8x10 and 11x14 sheet film and heavily
  > > retouched. You cannot duplicate those results with roll film.
 >
 > May be not, but it is the lighting technique that I am particularly
 > interested in. As for sheet film, I am able to borrow an 11 x 14 Gandolfi if
 > needed. In which case I would probably use HP5 plus or 320TXP souped in D-76
 > and contact printed on to Kentmere bromide or Ilford Multigrade FB.
 > (Provided I can get hold of the film sheets in the UK).
 > The trouble is, I have never used a sheet film camera before, let alone a
 > monster of this size. Perhaps I will stick with the Mamiya.
 > Thanks.

UC and various incarnations is a troll.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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see

External


Since: May 19, 2004
Posts: 482



(Msg. 15) Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 4:25 pm
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"Keith Tapscott" <not.RemoveThis@home.com> wrote

 > I want to have a go at taking some studio portraits in a similar style of
 > what you sometimes see in photo magazines of 1930s and 1940s Hollywood
 > movie stars.

Ah, accessory to narcissism. Having played around with this to no good
end (the photography, not the narcissism, though some do differ on this
point) my take is:

Try to locate a fellow going by the handle of Zeitgeist, often to be found
on the MF groups. He knows what he is talking about.

But for the usual ignorant Usenet view I can say:

For books of photos from that age I get books from the Cleveland Public
Library which is reasonably huge and from the regions other libraries
via inter-library loan. The style had a bit of a revival in the 50's
using the LuridColor (reg. tm.) process - a good reason to pour
over old issues of Playboy.

Sometimes I can divine the original lighting setup from the highlights
in the model's eyes and by paying attention to filled shadows (a soft
box these days) and hard shadows (a bulb in reflector), and bright
highlights (a spot). As strobes didn't exists until after WWII,
the 30's shots were taken with hot lights. The lighting used
was as in movies where the lights hang from the ceiling of the
studio. In the pics I have seen all the lights are up on 12' poles.

So much for history.

I find hot lights a lot easier to work
with. They don't have to be very hot: I use 60/100/200
watt lightbulbs. I shoot 35 mm at 1/4 second and the lens
at f2.0 so the lack of brilliant light isn't a problem.

I use a diffuse source (or two), a somewhat hard modeling light
that grazes the surface of the face and a spotlight from above/back
for the hair. The hair light has to be tightly controlled so it
doesn't light up the fuzz on her clothes. It is fun to play around
with different 'structures of light, such as a long diffuse source
(a 24" fluorescent light) for the fill. It will cast shadows along
the short dimension but not on the long dimension. I found if I
make this source too long it makes for a Sci-Fi look.

In deference to Hurell, I prefer to have the modeling light at
the same level as the camera so the shadows are easier to control.

I shoot from a foot or two above the head and have the model lean
forward and sideways a bit then turn her head over her shoulder
and peer up - too much of this and I end up with Princess Di,
and it looks just too-too, you know. With the model peering
up just right I hide the neck and emphasize the chin - which
is good if she doesn't have thick black hairs growing from her chin.

I use an incident meter. It makes balancing the lighting ratios
easier. I measure each light individually and go for a 1-2 stop
difference between the modeling and the fill. The ratio depends
on how forceful I want the shadows to be. I measure the background
with a spot meter and try to its lighting uniform.

For a softbox I either bounce a light off a large white
card, light up the back of a thin sheer curtain or use a
window (with or without a sheer curtain).

For the modeling light I use a very large spun aluminum reflector -
the type that show up in rummage sales.

For the spot I have one/two/three coffee cans (bottoms
removed) taped with duct/gaffer tape to make a collimating
tube: I support the tube with a set of stands and put a
bare lightbulb, held on a separate stand) poking into
the far end of the tube. Attaching a sheet of board with
the appropriate hole to the end of the tube can be
used for tighter control, but I never got this fancy.

For me, quantity assures quality when fooling around
with this stuff - just random chance will produce
one good shot out of the hundred carefully thought
out bad ones.

You can, as you mention, borrow an 11x14. For
learning I would advise a 35mm and the cheapest
Jessop's film you can find. I've used up _lots_
of film trying to get portraiture down pat. I can see
why, when a portrait photographer gets it all set
'just so', he nails the lightstands to the floor.
Take good notes, I don't.

I like 35mm TechPan. It works well because it's
red sensitivity hides skin blemishes. When enlarged
to less than 8x10 the quality is awfully close to 4x5.
I have the model use very dark lipstick; I check
it by looking through a light red filter. A wee dram
of diffusion is a good idea, but I have never found
a filter that is wee enough. Another homeopathic dose of
diffusion filtering when enlarging gets rid of any
vestigial grain.

Like most photography I find it easy to do but very
hard to do well.

--
Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix . netcom . com
psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: B&amp;W Hollywood style portraits. 
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F-Stop timer kit available - Kits for an F-Stop timer: See announcement in rec.photo.marketplace.darkroom -- Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio nolindan@ix.netcom.com Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
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