The ZLRs I own

 > [Larry:]
 > I thought I would post something germain
 > to the topic of this newsgroup.
 > First the Sony F828

The Sony F828 is an EVF camera, not a reflex camera, and thus is off-topic
in a group supposedly dealing with reflex cameras such as ZLRs.

Because of its aspect, which for untrained eyes may resemble that of
reflex camera, some people fraudulently refer to the Sony F828 and other
EVF cameras as ZLRs and thus as reflex cameras.

The acronym "ZLR", one should remember, stands for "Zomm-Lens-Reflex"
cameras, a subset of SLRs, or "Single-Lens-Reflex" cameras. Reflex cameras
in general are characterized by far superior image quality and features,
and much higher prices, than EVFs.

However, this newsgroup is fully commited to spread, support and further
the marketing fraud that EVFs are ZLRs or reflex cameras.

Anyone who buys an EVF thinking that it is a reflex camera, or even an
association of customers, might consider the civil and even criminal
liability of anyone directly or indirectly involved in furthering this
fraud, even without the apparent purpose of achieving personal gain.

Whatever may be the case, the fact remains that this newsgroup became,
assuming that it was not from the start, a source of intentional
misinformation intended to make customers believe that they are buying a
reflex camera while they are buying merely an EVF camera. A crooked
resource on the internet.

Wish you all good luck!

Julio.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: The ZLRs I own 

 > "J.S.Pitanga" <jspitanga.RemoveThis@fastimap.com> wrote in message news:opslo9zwn1lw3qwu@jsp.ajato.com.br...

I own a Panasonic DMC FZ-20 5mp 12x zoom digital ZLR camera and because of that I can post
to this group and talk about it as much as I like. I really enjoy using this type of ZLR camera. It's the
best in its class. What type of ZLR camera do you own?<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: The ZLRs I own 

"Ken" <ken.TakeThisOut@ken.ken> wrote in message
news:%sXMd.897$ZZ.639@newssvr23.news.prodigy.net...
 >
  > > "J.S.Pitanga" <jspitanga.TakeThisOut@fastimap.com> wrote in message
news:opslo9zwn1lw3qwu@jsp.ajato.com.br...
 >
 > What type of ZLR camera do you own?

I would suspect he doesn't Ken, at least not by his definition. All he is
intent on is destroying this NG.
The ZLR I own is a Nikon CP8800 and BTW it also has an EVF.
Kind regards,
Leo<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: The ZLRs I own 

Larry wrote:
 > I thought I would post something germain to the topic of this
 > newsgroup.

Thanks, Larry.

Between myself and my wife the ZLRs we have are the Nikon Coolpix 5700 and
8400, and the Panasonic FZ20. We both started with Nikon, a Coolpix 900
in my case and the 990 for my wife.

- the 5700 has been my main camera for a couple of years. I do like the
extended telephoto, and having the electronic reflex to the EVF allowed a
much better taking posture for me of the camera to the face rather than at
arm's length. These days I need reading glasses, so changing glasses just
to take a photo eliminated that, and provided a much better view in
sunlight. OK, so there are some low-light issues, but taking three photos
to get one good one if needed costs nothing.

- when my wife needed a long zoom camera, image stabilisation had just
appeared. We looked at the various offerings and concluded that the
Panasonic FZ20 was the best value. The CF cards and AA batteries of the
Canon S1 IS would have fitted in better with our existing kit, by Cecilia
wanted a step up from the 3MP of the Nikon 990 to the 5MP of the
Panasonic. The camera hasn't been used a lot in anger as yet, but has
produced some good pictures. The image stabilisation works very well, and
the manual focussing is excellent too.

- The Nikon 8400 has 24mm wide-angle built in. I analysed the pictures I
took with the 5700 on a trip to Prague, and found that many were at the
wide-angle end. I had a tiny 24mm adapter for the Coolpix 990, but I
didn't want the bulk of the equivalent adapter for the 5700. The flash
coverage on the 8400 is excellent, making it an excellent camera for
indoors.

So today, on a short trip I take the Nikon 8400 and Cecilia takes her
Panasonic FZ20. I don't know what I will do on longer trips where I want
the telephoto of my 5700 and the wide-angle of the 8400. I may even take
both!

Cheers,
David<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: The ZLRs I own 

David J Taylor commented courteously ...

 > Between myself and my wife the ZLRs we have are the
 > Nikon Coolpix 5700 and 8400, and the Panasonic FZ20.
 > We both started with Nikon, a Coolpix 900 in my
 > case and the 990 for my wife.

Hi, David.

I, too, have a Nikon 5700, you may have seen my rants and
pleas for help with flash exposure problems on
rec.photo.digital.

Do you, perchance, take flash pictures in museum settings
with your 5700, either with the built-in Speedlight or an
external flash? If Yes, how are your results.

Thanks.

--
ATM, aka Jerry<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: The ZLRs I own 

In article <06VMd.585$lz5.560@newssvr24.news.prodigy.net>,
apquilts DeleteThis @pacbell.net says...
 > I have the 828 and a D70.
 > The 828 is slower to start up, has more shutter delay and takes longer than
 > it should to write any kind of file but RAW is worse of all. However after
 > doing alot of comparison shooting with this camera image quality for RAW and
 > TIFF is not that much better than jpeg: cyan blues are a little more
 > accurate in RAW but not too much else.

<snipped for space not content>

Since most of the shooting I do is under-exposed because I dont use anything
higher than ISO 100 on the Sony (probably limiting myself but its what Ive
been doing) I find slightly more advantage with RAW on the 828. Simply using
the exposure slider in Photoshop CS raw plugin gets the picture where I want
it (usually) with less noise (hopefully) than I would get with the higher ISO
setting.

When I bought the 828 I was going by my experience with the 717 and figured
it would perform at least as well plus give me the RAW files. Though its NOT
exactly what I expected, I wouldn't say I regret buying it, as I sold enough
photos from it to pay for it several times over in the first 3 months I had
it.

Its MUCH faster than any other Point & Shoot I have ever used except the Sony
V-1. (its about equal to the V-1, MAYBE a little faster)

I must add here that getting shots I can sell is a priority, but its not my
only priority, and thats why Im a little dissapointed with the 828. I have
often gotten pictures that would have been "just a little better" if the
camera had lived up to my expectations and I hate to sell them that way.
Sony, however, is not responsible for my expectations, so I guess my only
REAL complaint is that the camera was (and still is) overpriced.

When I got the 828 my choices in the same price range were limited. (July
04).

For a thousand dollars I could get the 828 or a Digital Rebel, everything
else in the price range didn't seem to be "value for money".

I almost got the Rebel, but then I did the math... I NEEDED the full range of
the lens on the Sony, and if I were to get it I would need to buy the Rebel
and at LEAST two more lenses. The kit lens on the Rebel would only be
suitable for "Posed" shots (about 10% of my shooting)

Ive never been able to settle for "cheap" lenses, so if I were to get what I
needed from the Rebel, I'de need to spend about $3000 up front. Ya' cant do
that on a 1000 dollar budget.

Knowing the quality of the lens on the F-717 was a selling point for the 828,
and I must admit that the 828 is the ONLY camera I ever bought without
holding/shooting/testing first. I have experienced NO disapointment with the
lens on either the 717 or the 828

The final clincher (for me) was the cf-card slot on the camera.

One of my regular photo customers is a specialty clothing designer (Western
Wear for Western Riders), and she uses her photos to advertise the stuff she
is wearing in the picture.

I have found the VERY SLIGHT color inacuracy in the Sony is sometimes a
hindrance in this, so when I'm shooting her I usually use the Fuji S7000 if
she is wearing any shade of GREEN or LIGHT BLUE.

The Fuji SEEMS a little more accurate for that kind of shooting.

The Sony doesn't seem to discriminate well between the "Greenish-Blues" and
the "Blueish-Greens" she seems to favor.. (probably due to the "emerald"
sensors) Outdoors in Sunlight, carefull exposure settings and NO AUTOMATION
except focus can make the Sony get the colors right, but most of my pictures
arent taken under those conditions.

The subtle differences show up better with the Fuji set on "Chrome" color.
(Im not sure what that setting is SUPPOSED to do, but I THINK it makes the
picture look more like it was shot on FUJICHROME film, probably should get
around to RTFM)

Right now I'm thinking about what to do for the oncoming season (my shooting
season is April through October for horse shows) I'm hoping the income from
the first couple of shows will be timed right for a good DSLR. (I must admit
to yearning for the Oly E-volt with the self cleaning sensor gadget, but the
lens range isn't there yet for any price.)

Here again Im looking at a camera that doesn't inherantly have the lens range
I need!

This is why I've been stuck in the ZLR area for so long. I dont want to be
out in the middle of the show ring, changing lenses!!!

When Im in that ring I need 30mm to 210 equivalent MOUNTED AND READY and to
get that on a DSLR with a high quality lens is NOT going to be a small matter
of "pocket change".

The "Show Rings" I shoot in are getting BIGGER, figure 100 ft. by 200 ft.
(minium) and the picture I want can be ANYWHERE in that ring at any time
during the class Im shooting!

In reality, I can only cover about 1/4 to 1/3 of the ring at any given time,
and my flash can only fill a given area, so having the lens ON THE CAMERA for
the whole 7 to 12 minutes of the class is imperitive.

Picture in your mind, taking photos in a room where they are sand blasting a
car body with no ventilation and you can get an idea of the environment I
shoot in. Luckily the dust level is usually only bad at the END of the class
and I get my pictures during the first 3/4 of the class, but I cant exit the
ring until the horses do, so the camera is exposed to ALL the dust.. I
usually tuck it under my vest for the last minute or two of the class to
protect it as much as possible.

Granted the dust is (mostly) non-abrasive (its 80% ground-up horse-dung) and
can be brushed off the camera with a soft make-up brush,and blown away with a
bulb, but it gets INSIDE every DSLR I have seen in the ring, almost
immediatley. (its probably the major reason most horse show event
photographers dont do what I do unless they are using film). So far Ive not
had it intrude on the inner workings of either the 717 or the 828.

If my incomming e-mail is any indicator, I may well have more business than I
can handle this coming season, and the price of a new E-volt with a perfect
(for me) lens wont be out of the question. My print costs are LOW and I'm
finding more people are willing to pay for several (or a dozen or more)
pictures on cdrom than are willing to pay for individual prints. I do, of
course, put Logos on ALL photos on a cdrom, and include a warning label about
copyright rules on all cdroms delivered. So far, all of my pictures that I
have seen published have been done so with my permission (and my thanks). I
have had only ONE case where the photo had my logo trimmed off by the
publisher, and no credit was given. I di recieve an apology (un-solocited)
from the publisher.

Hope I haven't rambled on too much..

If anyone is interested, some time this weekend (probably Sunday) I will post
my experiences with the Fuji S5000 and the Fuji S7000.


--
Larry Lynch
Mystic, Ct.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: The ZLRs I own 

this post is not archived.
 >> Stay informed about: The ZLRs I own 

"Leo R." <lsrolfeFAKED.TakeThisOut@ihug.co.nz> wrote in message news:cu1srs$qai$1@lust.ihug.co.nz...
 > "Ken" <ken.TakeThisOut@ken.ken> wrote in message
 > news:%sXMd.897$ZZ.639@newssvr23.news.prodigy.net...
  > >
   > > > "J.S.Pitanga" <jspitanga.TakeThisOut@fastimap.com> wrote in message
 > news:opslo9zwn1lw3qwu@jsp.ajato.com.br...
  > >
  > > What type of ZLR camera do you own?
 >
 > I would suspect he doesn't Ken, at least not by his definition. All he is
 > intent on is destroying this NG.

His definition does not count and he is not smart enough to destroy this group.

 > The ZLR I own is a Nikon CP8800 and BTW it also has an EVF.

I was looking at one last night at the camera store. Nice camera!<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: The ZLRs I own 

All Things Mopar wrote:
 > David J Taylor commented courteously ...
 >
  >> Between myself and my wife the ZLRs we have are the
  >> Nikon Coolpix 5700 and 8400, and the Panasonic FZ20.
  >> We both started with Nikon, a Coolpix 900 in my
  >> case and the 990 for my wife.
 >
 > Hi, David.
 >
 > I, too, have a Nikon 5700, you may have seen my rants and
 > pleas for help with flash exposure problems on
 > rec.photo.digital.
 >
 > Do you, perchance, take flash pictures in museum settings
 > with your 5700, either with the built-in Speedlight or an
 > external flash? If Yes, how are your results.
 >
 > Thanks.

Jerry,

I must admit that the small built-in flash on these cameras has its
limitations. With my own photography, when inside museums etc. I usually
try and use the natural lighting, even if that means having to prop the
camera on an object for support. (I carry neither a tripod nor an
external flashgun). I've just bought a "pod" support to try out!

<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.thepod.ca/home.html" target="_blank">http://www.thepod.ca/home.html</a>

The flash I do use is restricted to objects at a fairly constant distance,
i.e. not with great range between front and back like a car close-up. The
fall off of light with distance is rather rapid - although you can use
bounce flash if the ceiling is low enough. I have found that you need to
keep the front of the camera clear of obstructions. If the flash sensor
or the lamp itself is obstructed you can get odd exposures.

Although I've only had it a short while, the flash on the 8400 seems a
little better - it covers all of the 24mm field of view - although that
might mean in your case getting an overall impression of the room rather
than a detailed close-up of a single vehicle.

At least with digital you get the chance to checkout the results and try
again.

Cheers,
David<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: The ZLRs I own 

David J Taylor commented courteously ...

 > I must admit that the small built-in flash on these
 > cameras has its limitations. With my own photography,
 > when inside museums etc. I usually try and use the
 > natural lighting, even if that means having to prop
 > the camera on an object for support.

Hi, David.

I've had nothing but trouble shooting available light with
my 5700. I shoot mainly car pictures at places like The
Henry Ford Museum and The Walter P. Chrysler Museum. Both
are dim, the HF museum would make a bar look bright! I've
tried a small tripod, which works, but its cumbersome and
slow.

What's worse, though, is that in my experience, anything
over ISO 200, certainly 800, creates images that look like
the car was painted on beach sand. That's true even if I
turn on the 5700's Noise Reduction. The noise is so bad
that I cannot realistically eliminate it even using Paint
Shop Pro 9's outstanding Digital Camera Noise Reduction
Filter.

As to flash, you're clearly right about the Speedlight -
it's range is about 10', max. My Sunpak 433D has a guide
number of 120, so should have a range of up to about 30-
35', which is more than ample.

I only alluded to my problem in my previous post. I'd say
that about 1/3 of my flash pictures (either flash) are
excellent, another 1/3 are underexposed but can be easily
fixed in PSP 9, but the final 1/3 are 5-6 f/stops under
(which of course starts kicking up noise). I can sometimes
fix these in PSP also, but not always.

I have the 5700's feature to display the just-shot image
in the EVF for 3 seconds after each shot, so I can tell
right away if I've gotten an underexposure.

I've worked with Nikon Tech Support and sent the camera in
for service but no dice. I've "talked" to a couple of
other 5700 owners who also said they got inconsistent
exposures similar to mine.

I've tried to determine a root cause so I could avoid it,
but haven't found one yet. I have yet to get a bad picture
in smaller rooms, such as my house or a closed-in area of
a museum.

The biggest culprits are: very dark ambient light, dark
cars (the bright cars work much better), and areas where
there's nothing around or over the car to reflect the
flash (museums selding have drop ceiling so your
suggestion to tilt the Sunpak's flash head up for bounce
doesn't help me).

Also, while not conclusive, I find that when I have to
stand back and use mild-to-moderate telephoto on the zoom
lens, I get more underexposures (can't always fix that,
though, because of barriers preventing me from getting
closer).

It seems to me anecdotally that the 5700's flash sensor is
biased to wide-angle and it is reading that even though
I've zoomed in. I changed from "matrix" to "spot" metering
in Setup which has helped, but only marginally.

When I know I've got an unacceptably bad exposure, I
switch to full manual mode (M), estimate the distance by
pacing it off, and use the Sunpak's GN. Works pretty well,
but it is much slower to do this. Also, even when I have a
pretty accurate distance, I find that the 5700 tends to
underexpose anyway, so I often have to take a series of
test shots once I have the so-called "correct" aperture.
And, it continues to piss me off that a Nikon is *so* much
worse than my previous Fuji 4900 even with its puny on-
board flash.

 > The flash I do use is restricted to objects at a
 > fairly constant distance, i.e. not with great range
 > between front and back like a car close-up. The fall
 > off of light with distance is rather rapid - although
 > you can use bounce flash if the ceiling is low enough.

Yep, light falls off as the square of the distance so
shooting a car picture at an angle, for example a front
3/4 view, creates problems. And, the foreground and
background get killed as well. Highlights often blow out
and shadows turn to ink.

So, I almost always have to spend a fair amount of time in
PSP selecting various parts of the picture and fixing the
underexposure areas individually. I'm still trying to
learn how to put a gradient fill on a layer at the angle
the car is and use that to linearly brighten the image,
knowing that the light fall-off isn't really linear.

 > I have found that you need to keep the front of the
camera
 > clear of obstructions. If the flash sensor or the lamp
 > itself is obstructed you can get odd exposures.

Right on, David! My fat fingers often get in the way. What
Nikon Service did was clean the camera, guess they thought
the sensor was dirty or maybe something inside the camera
was dirty. I sent those guys 30+ pictures on a CD with
documentation of things like shotting conditions and focus
distance. Of course, they could examine the EXIF data to
find out quite a bit (but distance isn't in EXIF but
aperture is).

While on the subject of "fat fingers", I'm *always*
accidently putting my finger on the litte button on the
side of the camera that controls the JPEG compression.
Sometimes I don't spot that I've accidently switched from
"fine" to "normal" or "basic" until I've taken a bunch of
ruined shots, so I have to scurry back and try again. I
wish that this feature was either in Setup or needed a 2nd
button to make it work. Bad ergonomic design IMHO.

Thanks for your help. If you have any other suggestions
for me after reading my clarification, I'd be
appreciative.

--
ATM, aka Jerry<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: The ZLRs I own 

 > [Ken:]
 > I own a Panasonic DMC FZ-20 5mp 12x zoom
 > digital ZLR camera and because of that I
 > can post to this group and talk about it
 > as much as I like.

Of course. It is the inalienable right of every idiot to display his
idiocy for everyone to see, and this newsgroup is here to provide you with
a space to do so.

 > I really enjoy using this type of ZLR camera.

I'm sure you do, some people have strange habits indeed. They cannot see a
Zooming-Long-Retroflex device without almost fainting in bliss.

 > It's the best in its class.

It is the longest, it is the thickest and it zooms in and out very fastly
and forcefully. What else someone in love with retroflex devices might
wish?

 > What type of ZLR camera do you own?

Sorry, but since my natural inclination is for penian rather than anal
pleasure I have never owned any retroflex device!

The best,

Julio<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: The ZLRs I own 

  >> [Ken:]What type of ZLR camera do you own?

 > [Leo:]
 > I would suspect he doesn't Ken, at least
 > not by his definition.

As just explained in my previous message, I indeed do not own any
retroflex device, such as ZLRs (Zooming-Long-Retroflex) devices and dildos
in general. But please feel free to discuss them on this newsgroup if this
is your pleasure!

 > All he is intent on is destroying this NG.

Why should I? I deeply respect the right of users of retroflex devices to
discuss about how long and thick and protruding and enjoyable are their
beloved toys. I aso respect their right to masturbate while thinking and
saying that they have a reflex camera.

 > The ZLR I own is a Nikon CP8800

Although very thick, your retroflex device (10x) is not as long as Ken's
(12x). This is because of different anatomies and personal preferences.
Anyway it is very protruding and your pleasure can always be increased
digitally (that is, with the help of the fingers).

 > and BTW it also has an EVF.

Who cares. What is important for the people this newsgroup is intended to
is that it will always be a long, thick, protruding, enjoyable
Zooming-Long-Retroflex.

The best,

Julio.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: The ZLRs I own 

 > "J.S.Pitanga" <jspitanga.TakeThisOut@fastimap.com> wrote in message news:opslqi7jvvlw3qwu@jsp.ajato.com.br...

I own a Panasonic DMC FZ-20 5mp 12x zoom digital ZLR camera and because of that I can post
to this group and talk about it as much as I like. I really enjoy using this type of ZLR camera. It's the
best in its class. I should also mention that it takes pretty pictures and I can display them on my
computer monitor. I can also print those pretty pictures with my Canon printer so I can share them
with my friends. My friends really like to see the pretty pictures I take. I won't share them with
you though. I don't think you want to be my friend. I can't imagine that you have any friends and if
you did they are probably not very nice people. It must miserable being you.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: The ZLRs I own