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Tray developing 4x5 - questions

 
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sg0ldo1867

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Since: Oct 05, 2004
Posts: 28



(Msg. 1) Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 1:58 pm
Post subject: Tray developing 4x5 - questions
Archived from groups: rec>photo>darkroom (more info?)

The other night I tried this for the first time. I ran four negatives,
using a 5x7 tray for the developer and 8x10 for fix, stop, and
washing. The negatives came out beautifully with no emulsion
damage whatsoever BUT

1) I had a devil of a time manipulating the sheets in the developer
tray. I have medium-sized hands, but it just seemed very awkward.
I had the tray oriented vertically in front of me - maybe horizontal
might be better?

2) All four negatives had varying degrees of scratching on the base
side! I actually think this might have occurred during the wash as
this was the time the negs were free to move around. How can I
stop this from happening?

Thanks!

Steve

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lrkalajainen1

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Since: Sep 20, 2004
Posts: 122



(Msg. 2) Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 1:58 pm
Post subject: Re: Tray developing 4x5 - questions [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Stephan Goldstein wrote:
 > The other night I tried this for the first time. I ran four negatives,
 > using a 5x7 tray for the developer and 8x10 for fix, stop, and
 > washing. The negatives came out beautifully with no emulsion
 > damage whatsoever BUT
 >
 > 1) I had a devil of a time manipulating the sheets in the developer
 > tray. I have medium-sized hands, but it just seemed very awkward.
 > I had the tray oriented vertically in front of me - maybe horizontal
 > might be better?
 >
 > 2) All four negatives had varying degrees of scratching on the base
 > side! I actually think this might have occurred during the wash as
 > this was the time the negs were free to move around. How can I
 > stop this from happening?
 >
 > Thanks!
 >
 > Steve

RE: #1 Use an 8X10 tray for the developer too. Much easier to
manipulate the sheets.

RE: # 2 Maybe it did happen in the wash tray, though it doesn't happen
that way for me. Perhaps your water volume was too high, making the
negs move too much. Try that first. If you still have scratches, look
to your shuffling method in the other trays. My method is to lift the
top sheet completely off the one underneath it with my right hand (I'm
right-handed)and then while lifting the front end (the end away from me)
of the whole pack with my left fingertips, slide the top one under the
rest, while lowering the pack down on top of it. Do an up and down
dunking motion two or three times without lifting out of the solution,
then repeat with the next top sheet.

Good luck.
Larry<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->

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rsmith

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Since: Jul 01, 2003
Posts: 107



(Msg. 3) Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 1:58 pm
Post subject: Re: Tray developing 4x5 - questions [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"Stephan Goldstein" <sg0ldo1867.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:vbKdnZk5gI-_lvDcRVn-vQ@rcn.net...
 > The other night I tried this for the first time. I ran four negatives,
 > using a 5x7 tray for the developer and 8x10 for fix, stop, and
 > washing. The negatives came out beautifully with no emulsion
 > damage whatsoever BUT
 >
 > 1) I had a devil of a time manipulating the sheets in the developer
 > tray. I have medium-sized hands, but it just seemed very awkward.
 > I had the tray oriented vertically in front of me - maybe horizontal
 > might be better?
 >
 > 2) All four negatives had varying degrees of scratching on the base
 > side! I actually think this might have occurred during the wash as
 > this was the time the negs were free to move around. How can I
 > stop this from happening?
 >
 > Thanks!
 >
 > Steve

Steve: use a larger tray. I suggest an 8x10. To minimize scratches, use a
lot of developer and move the sheet out from beneath the others before
lifting. Don't us tongs - use gloves or if not sensitive, fingers being
especially careful getting hold of the sheet.

Truly, dr bob.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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uraniumcommitt

External


Since: Sep 23, 2004
Posts: 258



(Msg. 4) Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 1:58 pm
Post subject: Re: Tray developing 4x5 - questions [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

sg0ldo1867 DeleteThis @yahoo.com (Stephan Goldstein) wrote in message news:<vbKdnZk5gI-_lvDcRVn-vQ DeleteThis @rcn.net>...
 > The other night I tried this for the first time. I ran four negatives,
 > using a 5x7 tray for the developer and 8x10 for fix, stop, and
 > washing. The negatives came out beautifully with no emulsion
 > damage whatsoever BUT
 >
 > 1) I had a devil of a time manipulating the sheets in the developer
 > tray. I have medium-sized hands, but it just seemed very awkward.
 > I had the tray oriented vertically in front of me - maybe horizontal
 > might be better?
 >
 > 2) All four negatives had varying degrees of scratching on the base
 > side! I actually think this might have occurred during the wash as
 > this was the time the negs were free to move around. How can I
 > stop this from happening?


USE HANGERS!


 >
 > Thanks!
 >
 > Steve<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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dickburk

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Since: Jul 01, 2004
Posts: 1173



(Msg. 5) Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 6:10 pm
Post subject: Re: Tray developing 4x5 - questions [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"Stephan Goldstein" <sg0ldo1867 DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:vbKdnZk5gI-_lvDcRVn-vQ@rcn.net...
 > The other night I tried this for the first time. I ran
 > four negatives,
 > using a 5x7 tray for the developer and 8x10 for fix, stop,
 > and
 > washing. The negatives came out beautifully with no
 > emulsion
 > damage whatsoever BUT
 >
 > 1) I had a devil of a time manipulating the sheets in the
 > developer
 > tray. I have medium-sized hands, but it just seemed very
 > awkward.
 > I had the tray oriented vertically in front of me - maybe
 > horizontal
 > might be better?
 >
 > 2) All four negatives had varying degrees of scratching on
 > the base
 > side! I actually think this might have occurred during
 > the wash as
 > this was the time the negs were free to move around. How
 > can I
 > stop this from happening?
 >
 > Thanks!
 >
 > Steve

I agree with the others. An 8x10 tray is the minimum for
any size film. Also, it should be well filled with solution.
It helps to use a tray with bumps of grooves on the bottom
to help you get a grip on the film.


--
---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk DeleteThis @ix.netcom.com<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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dmoss741

External


Since: Oct 11, 2004
Posts: 13



(Msg. 6) Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 8:00 pm
Post subject: Re: Tray developing 4x5 - questions [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"Stephan Goldstein" <sg0ldo1867 DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:vbKdnZk5gI-_lvDcRVn-vQ@rcn.net...
 > The other night I tried this for the first time. I ran four negatives,
 > using a 5x7 tray for the developer and 8x10 for fix, stop, and
 > washing. The negatives came out beautifully with no emulsion
 > damage whatsoever BUT
 >
 > 1) I had a devil of a time manipulating the sheets in the developer
 > tray. I have medium-sized hands, but it just seemed very awkward.
 > I had the tray oriented vertically in front of me - maybe horizontal
 > might be better?
 >
 > 2) All four negatives had varying degrees of scratching on the base
 > side! I actually think this might have occurred during the wash as
 > this was the time the negs were free to move around. How can I
 > stop this from happening?
 >
 > Thanks!
 >
 > Steve

I always use a 5x7 tray for 4x5 film, and have no problems regarding
scratching. Use gloves and be sure to carefully lift the bottom sheet and
CAREFULLY place it back down on the top of the pile. More than likely, the
scratches were incurred while placing the film back on top. Be sure to place
the emulsion side down.

Do you do a pre-soak?

It took me a couple tries to get the hang of it, but it's rather easy after
you get it down. I personally wouldn't recommend a bigger tray. That--to
me--seems like you'd be inviting more danger, because of movement. the 4x5s
fit nice and snug in a 5x7 tray, and it gives you just enough room to fit
your hand in and grab the film. And my hands are large too.

As a side note: I now use an old Unicolor tube and roller combo for my 4x5
development. It can hold four sheets at a time, and is very economical as
far as chemistry. You can find these for dirt cheap at used camera stores,
or via ebay.

Good luck and keep at it. Tray development is very easy when the stigma is
removed.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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tls

External


Since: Nov 01, 2004
Posts: 86



(Msg. 7) Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2004 12:16 am
Post subject: Re: Tray developing 4x5 - questions [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

In article <10mqbiv8eh9mra1 DeleteThis @corp.supernews.com>, dr bob <rsmith DeleteThis @dmv.com> wrote:
 >
 >Steve: use a larger tray. I suggest an 8x10. To minimize scratches, use a
 >lot of developer and move the sheet out from beneath the others before
 >lifting. Don't us tongs - use gloves or if not sensitive, fingers being
 >especially careful getting hold of the sheet.

Also, it matters _how_ you use an 8x10 tray. When working with two hands,
I find it easiest to put the 4x5 sheets horizontally in the 8x10 tray,
which is to say that the 5" dimension is parallel to the 8" dimension
of the tray. I then shuffle out-around-up-back-down, which is to say
that I carefully slide the bottom sheet out from the stack, using my
other hand to pull the stack up, then bring it out into the space at the
"top" of the 8x10 tray (further away from me), back onto the top of
the stack, then the "down" step is to gently tap the stack down into
the developer.

I *always* keep the emulsion side down. If you do not have perfectly
flat-bottomed trays you will want to work emulsion-side-up whether
you shuffle top-first or bottom-first but I find that I get scratches
that way no matter what I do. Flat bottomed trays and pull from
the bottom work well for me.

If I am doing two stacks at once, one with each hand, I find it easier
to pull the sheet I'm moving out _diagonally_ , so the 4x5 sheets are
stacked in, say, the bottom left corner of the 8x10 tray with the 5"
dimension parallel to the 10" tray dimension; I then shuffle out
diagonally into the space at the far corner of the tray and back in.

When I am really in practice I can shuffle bottom-first but if I were
to try it now after 6 years of using a Jobo almost all the time I
would go top-first if using both hands at once. The advantage of
top-first is that it's easier to grab the sheet; the disadvantage
is that it's easier to snag its corner on the sheet on the bottom as
you shuffle it back into the stack and scratch it.

Most scratches on sheet film seem to come either from the corners
of other pieces of sheet film or from texture on the tray itself.
Flat-bottom trays are a *must* if you're doing more than one sheet
at a time.

--
Thor Lancelot Simon tls DeleteThis @rek.tjls.com
But as he knew no bad language, he had called him all the names of common
objects that he could think of, and had screamed: "You lamp! You towel! You
plate!" and so on. --Sigmund Freud<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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sg0ldo1867

External


Since: Oct 05, 2004
Posts: 28



(Msg. 8) Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2004 5:05 am
Post subject: Re: Tray developing 4x5 - questions [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Thanks all for the suggestions. I did presoak, but the levels in the
developer and fixer trays could easily have been higher. I'll give
another try with the 5x7 tray and will pay careful attention to keeping
*both* sides of the film scratchfree this time!

Steve
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tls

External


Since: Nov 01, 2004
Posts: 86



(Msg. 9) Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2004 5:05 am
Post subject: Re: Tray developing 4x5 - questions [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

In article <OIKdnV8XNdY_QvDcRVn-hQ.RemoveThis@rcn.net>,
Stephan Goldstein <sg0ldo1867.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote:
 >Thanks all for the suggestions. I did presoak, but the levels in the
 >developer and fixer trays could easily have been higher. I'll give
 >another try with the 5x7 tray and will pay careful attention to keeping
 >*both* sides of the film scratchfree this time!

A 5x7 tray really isn't big enough. You need room to shuffle the
entire 4x5 sheet out and to the side -- with only 7" to work with, you
will have a half-inch of overlap, and it is very very hard to avoid
sliding multiple sheets against each others and getting scratches in
that case.

Besides, to do any significant number of sheets you need a volume of
developer that really calls for an 8x10 tray anyway, unless you're
using very concentrated developer working solutions. Use flat-bottomed
8x10 trays; you will be glad you did. Save tricky shuffle-partway-out
techniques for 8x10 film, where 16x20 trays are so cumbersome to work
with that they're called for.

--
Thor Lancelot Simon tls.RemoveThis@rek.tjls.com
But as he knew no bad language, he had called him all the names of common
objects that he could think of, and had screamed: "You lamp! You towel! You
plate!" and so on. --Sigmund Freud<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Tray developing 4x5 - questions 
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lrkalajainen1

External


Since: Sep 20, 2004
Posts: 122



(Msg. 10) Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2004 9:37 am
Post subject: Re: Tray developing 4x5 - questions [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Richard Knoppow wrote:
 > "Stephan Goldstein" <sg0ldo1867.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote in message
 > news:vbKdnZk5gI-_lvDcRVn-vQ@rcn.net...
 >
  >>The other night I tried this for the first time. I ran
  >>four negatives,
  >>using a 5x7 tray for the developer and 8x10 for fix, stop,
  >>and
  >>washing. The negatives came out beautifully with no
  >>emulsion
  >>damage whatsoever BUT
  >>
  >>1) I had a devil of a time manipulating the sheets in the
  >>developer
  >>tray. I have medium-sized hands, but it just seemed very
  >>awkward.
  >>I had the tray oriented vertically in front of me - maybe
  >>horizontal
  >>might be better?
  >>
  >>2) All four negatives had varying degrees of scratching on
  >>the base
  >>side! I actually think this might have occurred during
  >>the wash as
  >>this was the time the negs were free to move around. How
  >>can I
  >>stop this from happening?
  >>
  >>Thanks!
  >>
  >>Steve
 >
 >
 > I agree with the others. An 8x10 tray is the minimum for
 > any size film. Also, it should be well filled with solution.
 > It helps to use a tray with bumps of grooves on the bottom
 > to help you get a grip on the film.
 >
 >
Well, Steve, you should be thoroughly confused by now. Flat versus
bumpy-bottomed, top-down or bottom-up shuffling, horizontal or vertical
orientation, etc. My guess is that it's a matter of developing (pun
intended) the technique that works for you and sticking with it. But do
use an 8X10 tray. All your counselors agree on that.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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dmoss741

External


Since: Oct 11, 2004
Posts: 13



(Msg. 11) Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2004 11:30 pm
Post subject: Re: Tray developing 4x5 - questions [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"LR Kalajainen" <lrkalajainen.DeleteThis@suscom-maine.net> wrote in message
news:jOKdnaBf87hCy_PcRVn-vw@suscom-maine.net...
But do
 > use an 8X10 tray. All your counselors agree on that.

Negative...One dissenting opinion. Use a 5x7, groove-bottomed tray. Less
movement equals less chance for error, in my book.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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tls

External


Since: Nov 01, 2004
Posts: 86



(Msg. 12) Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2004 11:30 pm
Post subject: Re: Tray developing 4x5 - questions [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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In article <ulBbd.30434$QJ3.6277@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>,
Dickless Cheney <dmoss74.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote:
 >
 >"LR Kalajainen" <lrkalajainen.TakeThisOut@suscom-maine.net> wrote in message
 >news:jOKdnaBf87hCy_PcRVn-vw@suscom-maine.net...
 > But do
  >> use an 8X10 tray. All your counselors agree on that.
 >
 >Negative...One dissenting opinion. Use a 5x7, groove-bottomed tray. Less
 >movement equals less chance for error, in my book.
 >

How can you possibly shuffle one sheet around another with "less
movement"? The dimensions of the sheet will always remain the
same. It seems to me all we can possibly disagree about is how much
of that movement should take place beneath the surface of the liquid,
and how much is along some third axis.

--
Thor Lancelot Simon tls.TakeThisOut@rek.tjls.com
But as he knew no bad language, he had called him all the names of common
objects that he could think of, and had screamed: "You lamp! You towel! You
plate!" and so on. --Sigmund Freud<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Tray developing 4x5 - questions 
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uraniumcommitt

External


Since: Sep 23, 2004
Posts: 258



(Msg. 13) Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2004 11:30 pm
Post subject: Re: Tray developing 4x5 - questions [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

tls.DeleteThis@panix.com (Thor Lancelot Simon) wrote in message news:<ckmslc$lnb$1@panix5.panix.com>...
 > In article <ulBbd.30434$QJ3.6277@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>,
 > Dickless Cheney <dmoss74.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote:


USE HANGERS!


  > >
  > >"LR Kalajainen" <lrkalajainen.DeleteThis@suscom-maine.net> wrote in message
  > >news:jOKdnaBf87hCy_PcRVn-vw@suscom-maine.net...
  > > But do
   > >> use an 8X10 tray. All your counselors agree on that.
  > >
  > >Negative...One dissenting opinion. Use a 5x7, groove-bottomed tray. Less
  > >movement equals less chance for error, in my book.
  > >
 >
 > How can you possibly shuffle one sheet around another with "less
 > movement"? The dimensions of the sheet will always remain the
 > same. It seems to me all we can possibly disagree about is how much
 > of that movement should take place beneath the surface of the liquid,
 > and how much is along some third axis.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Tray developing 4x5 - questions 
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