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Terry Davis

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Since: Feb 15, 2005
Posts: 6



(Msg. 1) Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 11:44 pm
Post subject: Real feelings about fake images
Archived from groups: rec>photo>darkroom (more info?)

For over 20 years I have enjoyed traditional photography, both color and
b/w. I have also printed in both a color and a b/w darkroom for the
past 15 years.

The only print manipulation I perform is selective dodging, burning, and
cropping.

It seems that lately some viewers are questioning the "reality" of my
work. I am often asked; "Oh, did you create that image in Photoshop?".

My images are true to life....just as I saw them with my own eyes at the
time of exposure. I get upset when viewers suspect that my work is "made
up" or is "not real".

I am beginning to lose the excitement and joy that my photography has
given me over the years. I just do not feel inspired to seek out
great scenes to photograph when it is now possible to just create an
artifical scene on a computer.

Does anyone else feel this way...or am I just too sensitive for my own
good?

Terry

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Ehud Yaniv

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Since: Apr 10, 2005
Posts: 1



(Msg. 2) Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 2:55 am
Post subject: Re: Real feelings about fake images [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Sat, 9 Apr 2005 23:44:25 -0400, sportsguy_2005.DeleteThis@webtv.net (Terry
Davis) wrote:

 >For over 20 years I have enjoyed traditional photography, both color and
 >b/w. I have also printed in both a color and a b/w darkroom for the
 >past 15 years.
 >
 >The only print manipulation I perform is selective dodging, burning, and
 >cropping.
 >
 >It seems that lately some viewers are questioning the "reality" of my
 >work. I am often asked; "Oh, did you create that image in Photoshop?".
 >
 >My images are true to life....just as I saw them with my own eyes at the
 >time of exposure. I get upset when viewers suspect that my work is "made
 >up" or is "not real".
 >
 >I am beginning to lose the excitement and joy that my photography has
 >given me over the years. I just do not feel inspired to seek out
 >great scenes to photograph when it is now possible to just create an
 >artifical scene on a computer.
 >
 >Does anyone else feel this way...or am I just too sensitive for my own
 >good?
 >
 >Terry


In the end, no photo is "real" due to optics and film characteristics.
That is to say, depth of field, angle of view, selective focus, and
etc. for the optics. Light sensitivity, grain, sharpness and
resolution for film.

Burning and dodging change the way a photo is perceived. They can
change the point of interest or focus of a picture.

These techniques allow you to have your vision and create the reality
you see which is not, however, always what was in front of the lens.

Don't be offended if people think your photos have been photoshopped.
Just smile and suggest that you hope that technology catches up to the
quality of a good, handmade photograph.

Ehud
still-light.com<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->

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jjs

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Since: Apr 07, 2005
Posts: 15



(Msg. 3) Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 8:02 am
Post subject: Re: Real feelings about fake images [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"Terry Davis" <sportsguy_2005 RemoveThis @webtv.net> wrote in message
news:6675-4258A119-150@storefull-3133.bay.webtv.net...
 > For over 20 years I have enjoyed traditional photography, both color and
 > b/w. I have also printed in both a color and a b/w darkroom for the
 > past 15 years.
 >
 > The only print manipulation I perform is selective dodging, burning, and
 > cropping.
 >
 > It seems that lately some viewers are questioning the "reality" of my
 > work. I am often asked; "Oh, did you create that image in Photoshop?".

I was astonished the first time a sophisticated person published one of my
photos calling it a "Merged, maniuplated print." It was a straight,
conventional print.

 > My images are true to life....just as I saw them with my own eyes at the
 > time of exposure. I get upset when viewers suspect that my work is "made
 > up" or is "not real".

Consider it a sign of the times and be encouraged rather than discouraged.
When interests drift into what's genuine and what is not, you will have
evidence for the former.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Wayne

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Since: Mar 13, 2005
Posts: 48



(Msg. 4) Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 8:10 am
Post subject: Re: Real feelings about fake images [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Chris Swift via PhotoKB.com wrote:
 > It's a very frustrating attitude to have to deal with. People who
have to
 > ask if an image has been Photoshopped, to me, don't understand much
about
 > photography and aren't worth engaging in conversation about anything
photo-
 > related.

Rofl! Is that an MS or Ph.D in condescension you have there?


Wayne<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Wayne

External


Since: Mar 13, 2005
Posts: 48



(Msg. 5) Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 8:30 am
Post subject: Re: Real feelings about fake images [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Terry Davis wrote:
 > For over 20 years I have enjoyed traditional photography, both color
and
 > b/w. I have also printed in both a color and a b/w darkroom for the
 > past 15 years.
 >
 > The only print manipulation I perform is selective dodging, burning,
and
 > cropping.

That is still manipulation. Once you do that (and we all probably do)
you lose some of the high ground on claiming reality.

 >
 > It seems that lately some viewers are questioning the "reality" of
my
 > work. I am often asked; "Oh, did you create that image in
Photoshop?".
 >
 > My images are true to life....
just as I saw them with my own eyes at the
 > time of exposure. I get upset when viewers suspect that my work is
"made
 > up" or is "not real".


See above

 >
 > I am beginning to lose the excitement and joy that my photography has
 > given me over the years. I just do not feel inspired to seek out
 > great scenes to photograph when it is now possible to just create an
 > artifical scene on a computer.

I know the feeling, but you have to fight it or the bastards will win.
I wish I had a solution to keep the inspiration going, because I feel
much the same way sometimes.

 >
 > Does anyone else feel this way...or am I just too sensitive for my
own
 > good?
 >
 > Terry


Yes I feel much the same way, but not for the exact same reason.
Photography almost always involves manipulation of some degree, and I
think arguments to the contrary will fail every time. The way I look at
it the important difference is not one of reality versus fake its one
of labor and manual craftsmanship versus computer technowizardry. They
are entirely different skill sets (I did not say one was better), and
one need not do any labor or exhibit any manual craftsmanship to make
Photoshop images. That is what you are proud of (or should be), I
think, and is a valid and defensible reason for objecting to the
implication that your work is produced otherwise.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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rsmith

External


Since: Jul 01, 2003
Posts: 107



(Msg. 6) Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 9:22 am
Post subject: Re: Real feelings about fake images [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Terry Davis" <sportsguy_2005.RemoveThis@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:6675-4258A119-150@storefull-3133.bay.webtv.net...
 > For over 20 years I have enjoyed traditional photography, both color and
 > b/w. I have also printed in both a color and a b/w darkroom for the
 > past 15 years.
 >
 > The only print manipulation I perform is selective dodging, burning, and
 > cropping.
 >
 > It seems that lately some viewers are questioning the "reality" of my
 > work. I am often asked; "Oh, did you create that image in Photoshop?".
 >
 > My images are true to life....just as I saw them with my own eyes at the
 > time of exposure. I get upset when viewers suspect that my work is "made
 > up" or is "not real".
 >
 > I am beginning to lose the excitement and joy that my photography has
 > given me over the years. I just do not feel inspired to seek out
 > great scenes to photograph when it is now possible to just create an
 > artifical scene on a computer.
 >
 > Does anyone else feel this way...or am I just too sensitive for my own
 > good?
 >
 > Terry
 >
No! I feel just the opposite. I am inspired to produce even better
traditional prints especially as my last few prints were sold to individual
collectors searching for non-electronic photographs.

Truly, dr bob.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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pvcl

External


Since: Apr 21, 2004
Posts: 40



(Msg. 7) Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 11:55 am
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I'll agree with this (bottom) poster. I have spent the last 30 years of my
life working with information systems, and quite a few with digital image
manipulation techniques - usually "making art" or wallpaper for websites,
not manipulating images. I really dislike working with images in a digital
darkroom. Not that it's "immoral" or "not real art" or anything, I just
don't like those tools anymore than I like to cook with a blowtorch. I love
the challenges and opportunities posed by the limitations of a chemical
developing process, and as long as there is B&W film, I'll do the chemical
darkroom.

I think the rub is that non-photographers don't seem to appreciate the work
that goes into making a good straight print, and tend to view the artist's
talent exclusively as a function of the complexity of the image. The more
complex and manipulated, the better the artist. I wonder how they would
feel about Ansel Adams who labored mightily over his "straight" landscapes.
While to the casual eye they may appear essentially unmanipulated, his
abilities to eventually find his way to the print he intended and his
ability to frame the image at the right moment make him one of the truly
great artists. But I wonder if he will still be appreciated when we are a
few generations removed from the film camera?

The ease of digital imaging does not appeal to me, and frankly that's all
that should matter. I tend to print full frame 35mm, 4x5, and panoramics on
the theory that I should include all (and only) the necessary information in
the frame when I trip the shutter. I work at filtration and exposure to
capture the image I have in mind. I manipulate the print to get to that
image too. For me photography is about challenging myself. If I did it for
money, I'd have to go digital to compete. But I can waste countless sheets
of paper, rolls of film, and hours of labor, ultimately producing 1 good
print just because I have learned something from the experience and just
because I know that those who have spent time in a darkroom will appreciate
the effort as much as I appreciate their efforts.

I have a professional (maybe ex-professional now) photogapher friend who
will no longer look at B&W photo magazines because (in his words) "all the
worthy pictures have already been taken." To carry this bizarre notion into
the digital world, we should no bother to take any pictures because if it
hasn't been shot yet, (or we missed an historic picture opportunity), we
could just fabricate what we imagine it was like digitally. We "filmers"
have the satisfaction of knowing we have the skill and the luck to be in the
right place at the right time to capture in an image a tiny slice of reality
rather than (potentially) fabricate it out of thin air. That makes me want
to work harder at my craft.

I do label all my prints with the camera, film, and paper to be sure that
the viewer has the ability to understand that this print resulted from a
chemical rather than digital process.


"dr bob" <rsmith DeleteThis @dmv.com> wrote in message
news:115ia1opqk4pffd@corp.supernews.com...
 >
 > "Terry Davis" <sportsguy_2005 DeleteThis @webtv.net> wrote in message
 > news:6675-4258A119-150@storefull-3133.bay.webtv.net...
  >> For over 20 years I have enjoyed traditional photography, both color and
  >> b/w. I have also printed in both a color and a b/w darkroom for the
  >> past 15 years.
  >>
  >> The only print manipulation I perform is selective dodging, burning, and
  >> cropping.
  >>
  >> It seems that lately some viewers are questioning the "reality" of my
  >> work. I am often asked; "Oh, did you create that image in Photoshop?".
  >>
  >> My images are true to life....just as I saw them with my own eyes at the
  >> time of exposure. I get upset when viewers suspect that my work is "made
  >> up" or is "not real".
  >>
  >> I am beginning to lose the excitement and joy that my photography has
  >> given me over the years. I just do not feel inspired to seek out
  >> great scenes to photograph when it is now possible to just create an
  >> artifical scene on a computer.
  >>
  >> Does anyone else feel this way...or am I just too sensitive for my own
  >> good?
  >>
  >> Terry
  >>
 > No! I feel just the opposite. I am inspired to produce even better
 > traditional prints especially as my last few prints were sold to
 > individual
 > collectors searching for non-electronic photographs.
 >
 > Truly, dr bob.
 >
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Chris Swift via PhotoKB.c

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Since: Apr 10, 2005
Posts: 1



(Msg. 8) Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 11:55 am
Post subject: Re: Real feelings about fake images [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

It's a very frustrating attitude to have to deal with. People who have to
ask if an image has been Photoshopped, to me, don't understand much about
photography and aren't worth engaging in conversation about anything photo-
related.

My answer to the question as to whether one of my images has been PSed is,
"Who cares?" If it is indeed the questioner who does care, thank them for
their time and walk away.

Christopher Swift
www.hotchilistudios.com

--
Message posted via http://www.photokb.com
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jjs

External


Since: Apr 07, 2005
Posts: 15



(Msg. 9) Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 11:55 am
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"Pieter Litchfield" <pvcl@*nospam*plitch.com> wrote in message
news:bNa6e.1702$b92.215@twister.nyroc.rr.com...

 > [...]
 > I have a professional (maybe ex-professional now) photogapher friend who
 > will no longer look at B&W photo magazines because (in his words) "all the
 > worthy pictures have already been taken."

The same is said of poetry. From a some poets, publishers and academics in
the field I hear "there are so many good poets today compared to..." and
"all the poetic words that can be written have been", but the same people
admits that poetry continues to speak to it's mature self and to find new
audiences. I guess we need a Digital Poet Shop to truly rile them up.

 > To carry this bizarre notion into the digital world, we should no bother
 > to take any pictures because if it hasn't been shot yet, (or we missed an
 > historic picture opportunity), we could just fabricate what we imagine it
 > was like digitally. [...]

Bizarre is correct. Some of the most important photography is the humble
work of documentarians who are not trying to make an 'individual statement'
to draw attention to themselves, but to make pictures which regard The Thing
Itself.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Mark Lauter

External


Since: Apr 11, 2005
Posts: 44



(Msg. 10) Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 12:55 pm
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 > My images are true to life....just as I saw them with my own eyes at the
 > time of exposure. I get upset when viewers suspect that my work is "made
 > up" or is "not real".

Ansel Adams refers to photography as an artistic "departure from reality".

Things for you to consider:

1. Who cares what the averaged unwashed viewer thinks?

2. Art is art. Choose your medium. Some people are expressing themselves
with heavily manipulated images in PS, some are expressing themselves with
careful shutter time consideration and careful darkroom work. Each has its
place.

 > I am beginning to lose the excitement and joy that my photography has
 > given me over the years. I just do not feel inspired to seek out
 > great scenes to photograph when it is now possible to just create an
 > artifical scene on a computer.

It has always been possible to create an artificial scene - computer or no.
Photography isn't painting and neither is it digital image manipulation or
ray tracing.

I now prefer to focus on the mood created by my artwork, not the method by
which it was created. I have a friend who performs wonders with PovRay. He
spends hours creating amazing artificial scenes, however these images have
no asthetic appeal to me - not because of his tool, but because of how he
sees the world.

 > Does anyone else feel this way...or am I just too sensitive for my own
 > good?

Probably both. Smile

There was a short time last year when I went through something similar. I
had to decide to shoot for me, not for other people. It helped.

--
Mark Lauter

Photos, Ideas & Opinions
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.marklauter.com" target="_blank">http://www.marklauter.com</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Mark Lauter

External


Since: Apr 11, 2005
Posts: 44



(Msg. 11) Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 12:55 pm
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 > It's a very frustrating attitude to have to deal with. People who have to
 > ask if an image has been Photoshopped, to me, don't understand much about
 > photography and aren't worth engaging in conversation about anything
photo-
 > related.

Anyone is worth engaging in conversation - consider it our mission to
educate them. Wink

 > My answer to the question as to whether one of my images has been PSed is,
 > "Who cares?" If it is indeed the questioner who does care, thank them for
 > their time and walk away.

My response is always, "How does it make you feel?"

--
Mark Lauter

Photos, Ideas & Opinions
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.marklauter.com" target="_blank">http://www.marklauter.com</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Mark Lauter

External


Since: Apr 11, 2005
Posts: 44



(Msg. 12) Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 12:55 pm
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 > The only print manipulation I perform is selective dodging, burning, and
 > cropping.
 >
 > It seems that lately some viewers are questioning the "reality" of my
 > work. I am often asked; "Oh, did you create that image in Photoshop?".

BTW, Salvador Dali painted his own impressions over top other people's
prints. He didn't use a computer, but he essentially did the same thing
that is commonly referred to as photoshopping today. I don't think that
makes his artistic vision any less amazing.

--
Mark Lauter

Photos, Ideas & Opinions
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.marklauter.com" target="_blank">http://www.marklauter.com</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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jjs

External


Since: Apr 07, 2005
Posts: 15



(Msg. 13) Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 8:17 pm
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"Mark Lauter" <available_upon_request.RemoveThis@just_ask_in_a_post.com> wrote in
message news:c7x6e.38574$Pc.19181@tornado.tampabay.rr.com...

 > Things for you to consider:
 >
 > 1. Who cares what the averaged unwashed viewer thinks?

Indeed. It is the 'washed' we have to contend with - those who sit behind a
computer monitor or TV all day devloping their impressionistic reference to
reality.

 > 2. Art is art. Choose your medium. Some people are expressing themselves
 > with heavily manipulated images in PS, some are expressing themselves with
 > careful shutter time consideration and careful darkroom work. Each has
 > its
 > place.

Yes. There are those who Are There to make the pictuere, and those who
simulate the same, and the 'tweeners who do both. So be it. Choose your
endeavor and be there yourself. There is no way to encourage the
bench-racers, scope-dopes, those with no real lives. The later two are not
photographers.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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tcporco

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Since: Sep 23, 2004
Posts: 35



(Msg. 14) Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 10:55 pm
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In article <6675-4258A119-150.DeleteThis@storefull-3133.bay.webtv.net>,
Terry Davis <sportsguy_2005.DeleteThis@webtv.net> wrote:
 >For over 20 years I have enjoyed traditional photography, both color and
 >b/w. I have also printed in both a color and a b/w darkroom for the
 >past 15 years.

 >The only print manipulation I perform is selective dodging, burning, and
 >cropping.

 >It seems that lately some viewers are questioning the "reality" of my
 >work. I am often asked; "Oh, did you create that image in Photoshop?".

 >My images are true to life....just as I saw them with my own eyes at the
 >time of exposure. I get upset when viewers suspect that my work is "made
 >up" or is "not real".

 >I am beginning to lose the excitement and joy that my photography has
 >given me over the years. I just do not feel inspired to seek out
 >great scenes to photograph when it is now possible to just create an
 >artifical scene on a computer.

 >Does anyone else feel this way...or am I just too sensitive for my own
 >good?

Take their question as a badge of pride..._you_ do not need to simulate
what you can photograph.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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tcporco

External


Since: Sep 23, 2004
Posts: 35



(Msg. 15) Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 11:55 pm
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In article <115igef3i6h4935 DeleteThis @news.supernews.com>,
jjs <jjs DeleteThis @nowhere.you.know.net> wrote:
 >"Pieter Litchfield" <pvcl@*nospam*plitch.com> wrote in message
 >news:bNa6e.1702$b92.215@twister.nyroc.rr.com...

  >> [...]
  >> I have a professional (maybe ex-professional now) photogapher friend who
  >> will no longer look at B&W photo magazines because (in his words) "all the
  >> worthy pictures have already been taken."

 >The same is said of poetry. From a some poets, publishers and academics in
 >the field I hear "there are so many good poets today compared to..." and
 >"all the poetic words that can be written have been", but the same people
 >admits that poetry continues to speak to it's mature self and to find new
 >audiences. I guess we need a Digital Poet Shop to truly rile them up.

In some ways it's a function of what people are willing to consider "different"
or "similar". And the same kind of objection comes up in practically any
discussion of any art; you can find similar laments in the world of say
science fiction, or mystery stories, or rock music criticism. Nobody wants to
write certain stories,
say, because a similar theme was already addressed by someone else, and people
don't want it said that they ripped off the idea, or be compared to their
predecessor, etc. So thousands of great stories are never written, and that's
too bad.

Now I've taken plenty of more or less spontaneous nature shots in
local parks (not that I've achieved real skill yet--or more accurately
I have not made a photograph that I am satisfied with yet). And you could go
through books of nature photography and find something more or less similar
to each photograph I've taken. Not identical of course, but similar:
there are photographs waiting to be taken, and anyone else who has come upon
a similar place with a camera will take a similar picture.
The pictures I've taken are not copies of anything, but they are
also not original. If I craved originality I'd need to have an encyclopedic
knowledge of what has been done, and time and determination to do something
otherwise. And there'd be nothing wrong with that, and if I were a
professional artist that would be my duty (and there would be nothing
wrong with it!). On the other hand,
I believe excessive obsession with finding similarities of various sorts and
criticizing new photographs on such grounds is somewhat decadent. Doing
something completely new is only one of the wonderful things to attempt.

Could anything possibly be less original than taking a straight photograph of
the Golden Gate bridge off the Marin Headlands? But if you're some place like
that, how can you not take
such a photograph, at least once? Doesn't every new quality shot of it reveal
at least something about it, as the light, seasons, and bay change?
So, I can't speak for the market for professional artists, and for professional
photographers. I *do* know "all the good photographs" have certainly not
been taken. As an amateur I have the freedom to photograph anything I like,
since no claim of wild novelty, or even moderate novelty at all, is at stake.
There is nothing at all at
stake, except whether I like the photograph. I feel that if I adhere to some
conventions of quality and work hard to improve, and to learn to do an
excellent job, I am participating constructively in photography. Precisely
because what I do is not socially or monetarily important, I can have the
enjoyment of photographing anything. I can even try to photograph the Half
Dome in Yosemite, in black and white no less, to see what I can see there.
I can't imagine the burden of trying to do that as a professional, knowing
who you would be compared to. Though even that has been done, too.

So we can discuss how different a photo has to be from other photos someone
can remember before it is considered 'original'. There are interesting
issues of perception and cognitive psychology involved. And we could discuss
the issues professionals have in selling photos of things others have
photographed.
But I can't imagine that "all the great photos" have been taken--not until
every spot has been photographed round the clock under all conditions at all
depths of field, at all zooms, night and day, rain or shine (or rain and
shine), time exposures and high-speed exposures, infrared and ultraviolet, etc.
etc.
I once had to write ten pages describing a candle flame (an old-fashioned
science lab thing), and that convinced me that there's a *lot* to see if you
look, and therefore a *lot* to photograph if you work. It may take the rest
of my life, or never, before I can make others see it too (i.e., be a good
photographer). Perhaps there is no need for us beginners, or anyone else,
to be discouraged by such cynicism.

my strictly amateur 2 cents.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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