Process color paper as B&W??

"gr" <greif1nospam.TakeThisOut@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
news:470c525b$0$19583$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>I may have to do a project which uses RA4 type color paper, but want to
>end up with a B&W silver image. Can I process the silver in this and get
>rid of the incorporated dye somehow?
> gr

Standard RA4 color paper processed in B&W chems will give a low contrast
image. The chems should be in the area of 80 to 100 degrees F. The paper
will have to be handled in total darkness. You should probably use a bleach
step after stop bath and before fixer, or you could use bleach-fix. All
told, this is probably not a good way to go.

If you really need a B&W image, you should use B&W paper and chems. You can
print a color neg on standard B&W paper. Exposure times will be long,
perhaps 3-4 times normal. You will need to use a high contrast filter or
paper, perhaps two or three steps higher. Portraits may be a bit 'flat'
because of the way the B&W paper reacts to the colors of the light of flesh,
cheek, and lip tones.

If you need to work in the RA4 world, you can get B&W RA4 paper. Never used
it, but it's designed to give B&W prints in an RA4 processor.
 >> Stay informed about: Process color paper as B&W?? 

In article <1191991399.957104.148210.DeleteThis@o3g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
sreenath <sreenathbh.DeleteThis@rocketmail.com> writes:
>
> On Oct 10, 9:15 am, gr <greif1nos....DeleteThis@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>> I may have to do a project which uses RA4 type color paper, but want to
>> end up with a B&W silver image. Can I process the silver in this and get
>> rid of the incorporated dye somehow?
>> gr
>
> Well, RA4 paper also has silver halides for photo sensitivity. By
> using a normal b/w developer(Dektol, etc), it should be possible to
> get a silver image. The dyes will not form in this case.
>
> But how much silver the paper has, in order to get proper density, I
> am not sure. Just expose one RA4 paper and develop in Dektol and see.

I've done it occasionally, usually as part of a reversal process (to print
slides on RA-4 paper, which is another topic entirely....). The result is
a rather faint and low-contrast image; the blackest "black" is more like a
middle grey. I don't know if some particular developer would create a
blacker black. (I've used E-72 and DS-14.)

I have to ask the OP why he's got those particular constraints. If you
want a silver-halide final image, why not use a conventional B&W paper? If
you want a B&W (but not necessarily silver-halide) image on RA-4 paper,
why not process it in RA-4 chemistry and find a filter pack to get a
neutral image?

> On the other hand if you want b/w image(silver image) from a color
> negative, then you could just use paper similar to Panalure.

Unfortunately, Kodak's Panalure has been discontinued for a while. You
might still be able to find some in a store somewhere, but I have no
specific pointers, aside from the fact that there are two Panalure
auctions on eBay at the moment. I think I heard that Ilford's got another
panchromatic B&W paper, but they're marketing it for operators of lightjet
printers, not for conventional darkrooms. I don't know how it would
respond to color negatives in an enlarger. Unfortunately, I don't recall
what this paper is called.

Fortunately, color negatives can be printed on conventional B&W paper,
although the fact that most B&W papers are insensitive to red light will
result in some oddities compared to a photo that was shot on conventional
B&W film. This might or might not be important for any given photo.

--
Rod Smith, rodsmith.DeleteThis@rodsbooks.com
http://www.rodsbooks.com
Author of books on Linux, FreeBSD, and networking
 >> Stay informed about: Process color paper as B&W?? 

"Rod Smith" <rodsmith.RemoveThis@nessus.rodsbooks.com> wrote in message
news:m7s0u4-aj2.ln1@speaker.rodsbooks.com...
> In article <1191991399.957104.148210.RemoveThis@o3g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
> sreenath <sreenathbh.RemoveThis@rocketmail.com> writes:
>>

snip
> Unfortunately, Kodak's Panalure has been discontinued for a while. You
> might still be able to find some in a store somewhere, but I have no
> specific pointers, aside from the fact that there are two Panalure
> auctions on eBay at the moment. I think I heard that Ilford's got another
> panchromatic B&W paper, but they're marketing it for operators of lightjet
> printers, not for conventional darkrooms. I don't know how it would
> respond to color negatives in an enlarger. Unfortunately, I don't recall
> what this paper is called.
>

I don't have knowledge of the Ilford paper you mention, but Kodak's Endura
line of color RA-4 papers were several years ago re-balanced for lightjet
use. At that time, all I had to do was run a balance-- IIRC the magenta
channel changed. There shouldn't be a problem using a lightjet-designed
paper with a lens projection (enlarger or older printer) system, except
_maybe_ reciprocity issues with a longer exposure. My printer exposures
usually are 2 seconds or less, and when I use the same paper under the
enlarger my exposures are 10-20 seconds. I find no difference in the color
balance of the resulting prints.
(My printer (a 20 year old Hope minilab) will print up to 8" wide prints,
but process up to 16" wide. For prints larger than 8x10, I print them under
the enlarger and run them thru the processor)
 >> Stay informed about: Process color paper as B&W?? 

Rod Smith wrote:
> In article <1191991399.957104.148210.RemoveThis@o3g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
> sreenath <sreenathbh.RemoveThis@rocketmail.com> writes:
>> On Oct 10, 9:15 am, gr <greif1nos....RemoveThis@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>>> I may have to do a project which uses RA4 type color paper, but want to
>>> end up with a B&W silver image. Can I process the silver in this and get
>>> rid of the incorporated dye somehow?
>>> gr
>> Well, RA4 paper also has silver halides for photo sensitivity. By
>> using a normal b/w developer(Dektol, etc), it should be possible to
>> get a silver image. The dyes will not form in this case.
>>
>> But how much silver the paper has, in order to get proper density, I
>> am not sure. Just expose one RA4 paper and develop in Dektol and see.
>
> I've done it occasionally, usually as part of a reversal process (to print
> slides on RA-4 paper, which is another topic entirely....). The result is
> a rather faint and low-contrast image; the blackest "black" is more like a
> middle grey. I don't know if some particular developer would create a
> blacker black. (I've used E-72 and DS-14.)
>
> I have to ask the OP why he's got those particular constraints. If you
> want a silver-halide final image, why not use a conventional B&W paper? If
> you want a B&W (but not necessarily silver-halide) image on RA-4 paper,
> why not process it in RA-4 chemistry and find a filter pack to get a
> neutral image?
>
>> On the other hand if you want b/w image(silver image) from a color
>> negative, then you could just use paper similar to Panalure.
>
> Unfortunately, Kodak's Panalure has been discontinued for a while. You
> might still be able to find some in a store somewhere, but I have no
> specific pointers, aside from the fact that there are two Panalure
> auctions on eBay at the moment. I think I heard that Ilford's got another
> panchromatic B&W paper, but they're marketing it for operators of lightjet
> printers, not for conventional darkrooms. I don't know how it would
> respond to color negatives in an enlarger. Unfortunately, I don't recall
> what this paper is called.
>
> Fortunately, color negatives can be printed on conventional B&W paper,
> although the fact that most B&W papers are insensitive to red light will
> result in some oddities compared to a photo that was shot on conventional
> B&W film. This might or might not be important for any given photo.
>
I need a specific combination of surface finish and substrate that is no
longer manufactured with a B&W emulsion. Curse the manufacturers for
dropping all the black and white products!
gr
 >> Stay informed about: Process color paper as B&W?? 

In article <470ecded$0$9594$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>,
gr <greif1nospam.TakeThisOut@rochester.rr.com> writes:
>
>
> Rod Smith wrote:
>> In article <1191991399.957104.148210.TakeThisOut@o3g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
>> sreenath <sreenathbh.TakeThisOut@rocketmail.com> writes:
>>> On Oct 10, 9:15 am, gr <greif1nos....TakeThisOut@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>>>> I may have to do a project which uses RA4 type color paper, but want to
>>>> end up with a B&W silver image. Can I process the silver in this and get
>>>> rid of the incorporated dye somehow?
>>
>> I've done it occasionally, usually as part of a reversal process (to print
>> slides on RA-4 paper, which is another topic entirely....). The result is
>> a rather faint and low-contrast image; the blackest "black" is more like a
>> middle grey. I don't know if some particular developer would create a
>> blacker black. (I've used E-72 and DS-14.)
>>
>> I have to ask the OP why he's got those particular constraints.
>
> I need a specific combination of surface finish and substrate that is no
> longer manufactured with a B&W emulsion. Curse the manufacturers for
> dropping all the black and white products!

Then I suggest your best bet is probably to process the paper normally (in
RA-4 chemistry) and use color filters to get a neutral tone. (I've heard
that using a blank strip of color film sandwiched in with a B&W negative
can help in this respect, although I've never tried this, myself.)
Processing RA-4 paper in B&W chemistry will result in a faint image, at
least in my experience. OTOH, maybe you could find a B&W developer that'd
do the trick, or maybe some special processing after the normal B&W
processing (intensification or toning, say) could darken the rather faint
blacks.

--
Rod Smith, rodsmith.TakeThisOut@rodsbooks.com
http://www.rodsbooks.com
Author of books on Linux, FreeBSD, and networking
 >> Stay informed about: Process color paper as B&W??