When to Press the Button of the Timer?

"narke" <steven.DeleteThis@lczmsoft.com> wrote

 > In film processing, I believe I need about 5 seconds to drop the
 > developer into the tank. And, I want to follow the recommended
 > developing time published by Kodak to procss the roll, but a question
 > rised, when to begin timming? right before dropping the developer or
 > right after dropping that?

5 seconds in 12 minutes of developing time will make little difference.
The usual advice is to start the timer and pour in and pour out when the
timer stops. It takes about the same amount of time in as out and
so the pour times cancel.

 > 1) Using D-76 1:1 diluted, Kodak suggests 12 minus in 68F for small
 > tank processing. I, however, plan to use D-76D 1:1 (buffered and
 > diluted), can I use the same time?

Yes.

 > 2) I found Koda only suggests the D-76 1:1 for small tank, but for
 > large tank (1/2 - 3 1/2 gallon) or sheet he did not list a processing
 > time for D-76 1:1, can I deduce from that the Kodak do not like anyone
 > use D-76 1:1 for large tank or sheet proccessing?

No.

 > If this is true, does anyone give me a reason?

D-76 1:1 is used once and thrown away. In a 3.5 gallon tank you would
still need to throw the developer out after one use - and to use
up that much developer in one time would take 56 rolls of film.

In large tanks D-76 is used full strength with replenisher.
You need to process a lot of film to make this work. It is not
unusual to be using the same tank of developer for six months. Actually
the developer has been replaced many times over in six months by
the addition of the replenisher.

--
Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix . netcom . com
psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: When to Press the Button of the Timer? 

In a previous thread, you mentioned that you wanted to make D-76 from
scratch and that one litre of stock solution might be too much for you
because you only shoot around two rolls of film per month, if so , why are
you using a large tank?

--
Message posted via http://www.photokb.com
 >> Stay informed about: When to Press the Button of the Timer? 

In article <1112504425.415154.174510 DeleteThis @f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
  "narke" <steven DeleteThis @lczmsoft.com> writes:
 >
 > In film processing, I believe I need about 5 seconds to drop the
 > developer into the tank. And, I want to follow the recommended
 > developing time published by Kodak to procss the roll, but a question
 > rised, when to begin timming? right before dropping the developer or
 > right after dropping that?

The sources I read when learning B&W processing recently said to start
timing when beginning to pour in the developer and to stop timing when
starting to pour in the stop bath (that is, to pour out the developer a
few seconds before the end time). That said:

1) With a typical ~10-minute developing time, I doubt that 5 seconds will
make a noticeable difference.

2) The recommended development times published by Kodak and others are
all recommended points for experimentation to learn what works best for
you and your specific techniques and preferences. As such, I'd say to
just be consistent with whatever timing method you choose, and adjust
the times as you learn in order to get the results you like.

--
Rod Smith, rodsmith DeleteThis @rodsbooks.com
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.rodsbooks.com" target="_blank">http://www.rodsbooks.com</a>
Author of books on Linux, FreeBSD, and networking<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: When to Press the Button of the Timer? 

this post is not archived.
 >> Stay informed about: When to Press the Button of the Timer? 

i dont start the timing until i knocked the can around and got all the
air bubbles out.



"narke" <steven RemoveThis @lczmsoft.com> wrote in message
news:1112504425.415154.174510@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
 > In film processing, I believe I need about 5 seconds to drop the
 > developer into the tank. And, I want to follow the recommended
 > developing time published by Kodak to procss the roll, but a question
 > rised, when to begin timming? right before dropping the developer or
 > right after dropping that?
 >
 > BTW:
 >
 > 1) Using D-76 1:1 diluted, Kodak suggests 12 minus in 68F for small
 > tank proccessing. I, however, plan to use D-76D 1:1 (buffered and
 > diluted), can I use the same time?
 >
 > 2) I found Koda only suggests the D-76 1:1 for small tank, but for
 > large tank (1/2 - 3 1/2 gallon) or sheet he did not list a processing
 > time for D-76 1:1, can I deduce from that the Kodak do not like anyone
 > use D-76 1:1 for large tank or sheet proccessing? If this is true,
 > does anyone give me a reason?
 >
 >
 > Thanks in advance.
 > -
 > narke
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: When to Press the Button of the Timer? 

Keith Wrote,

 > In a previous thread, you mentioned that you wanted to make D-76 from
scratch and that one litre of stock solution might be too much for you
because you only shoot around two rolls of film per month, if so , why
are
you using a large tank?

Thanks for you remember my previous posts. I'v bought a AP tank which
is 650cc for 2 reel. 650cc is great than 16 oz (the upper bound of
small tank according to Kodak's publish) and less than 1/2 gallon ( the
lower bound of large tank). Since the AP tank is not cheap, so I can
not switch to a real small tank, that's my pain. And, because I am a
newbie, so I do not want to bother myself to make a D-76D Replenisher.
Can you tell me 650cc is a small or large tank? Throw off 650cc
solution is a little waste to me because I got only a liter stock
bottle, it can only provides 3x650cc with respect to 1:1.

-
narke<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: When to Press the Button of the Timer? 

"narke" <steven.DeleteThis@lczmsoft.com> wrote

 > I got a AP develop tank, I feel that's very good. But I still have two
 > question about it.

 > 1) There is a table as below marked on the bottom of the tank, and I do
 > not fully understand its meaning. Can anyone explain that for me?

1 x 135 / 126 = 375cc
2 x 135 / 126 = 650cc
1 x 127 / = 490cc
1 x 120 / 220 = 590cc

 > My 2nd question is, can I use only 375cc solution for the processing?

Yes. If you use shake agitation then when working with 1/2 empty tanks
it is a good idea to place an empty reel on top to keep the film reel
from rattling around. If your tank holds the lower reel in place with
a center stir stick (I think yours does, is it like a Patterson?) then
you don't need the 2nd reel.

 > I remembered people adviced that it is best to let the solution
 > fill the whole tank even when process one roll
 > in a two reel tank, that is 650cc in my case.

I wouldn't worry: try it and see what happens. You should also wash
hands before meals, say prayers before going to bed and call your
mother on Sunday.

 > Actully, since the tank provides a rod (on the center top of the
 > cover) to stir the solution, so I never need to shake the tank
 > by invert it.

Doesn't it come with a second cap for shake agitation? But twirling
is just fine.

126 and 127 are old film sizes. 126 was the original Instamatic
cartridge.

The swirl agitation can cause a regular pattern of fluid flow,
where the flow is the fastest the film will be darker, the
result is uneven film or film with streaks.

The swirl method is fine, modern reels don't have the same flow
problems as they did in the 1950's. Twirl a bit one way, a bit
the other, move it back and forth -- you want to have a random
flow of developer over the film.

 > I'v bought a AP tank which
 > is 650cc for 2 reel. 650cc is great than 16 oz (the upper bound of
 > small tank according to Kodak's publish) and less than 1/2 gallon ( the
 > lower bound of large tank).

The AP tank would be considered a 'small' tank. Large tanks are like
buckets.

In summary: use 375ml of developer and agitate as you please, just
be sure to do it for 5 seconds every 30 seconds in the developer
and 5 seconds every minute (about, it's not critical) in the fix.

--
Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix . netcom . com
psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: When to Press the Button of the Timer? 

"narke" <steven DeleteThis @lczmsoft.com> wrote in message
news:1112664483.909768.296530@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
 > Keith Wrote,
 >
  >> In a previous thread, you mentioned that you wanted to make D-76 from
 > scratch and that one litre of stock solution might be too much for you
 > because you only shoot around two rolls of film per month, if so , why
 > are
 > you using a large tank?
 >
 > Thanks for you remember my previous posts. I'v bought a AP tank which
 > is 650cc for 2 reel. 650cc is great than 16 oz (the upper bound of
 > small tank according to Kodak's publish) and less than 1/2 gallon ( the
 > lower bound of large tank). Since the AP tank is not cheap, so I can
 > not switch to a real small tank, that's my pain. And, because I am a
 > newbie, so I do not want to bother myself to make a D-76D Replenisher.
 > Can you tell me 650cc is a small or large tank? Throw off 650cc
 > solution is a little waste to me because I got only a liter stock
 > bottle, it can only provides 3x650cc with respect to 1:1.
 >
 > -
 > narke
 >
Use your AP tank as a small tank and follow the agitation instructions
supplied with the film tank. Use the developing times recommended by the
film manufacturer as a starting point, and don't be afraid to make
adjustments to the developing times if you need to alter the contrast
required for printing on to a standard paper grade. This is generally around
a grade number two or three although the latter is perfectly acceptable with
135-36 (35mm-36 exposure rolls). This you will find through trial. Which
type of enlarger do you use, diffuse light or condenser?<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: When to Press the Button of the Timer? 

We used to throw caution to the wind and use D-76 1:1 in a 3.5 gallon tank
line to process 35mm and 120 film but I don't recommend it for the following
reasons.

Kodak does not support the practice.

"No one" uses sink lines anymore.

One shot is both economical and consistent.

Sink lines (and replenished D-76) are full of developer by-products and
restrainers that reduce effective film speed. i.e. Tri-X needs to be rated
closer to 200 than 400.

re: when to start the timer. I pour then hit the button and pour out when
the time starts, easy for me since I use a Unicolor rotary system. It
matters less HOW you choose to do it and matters more on HOW CONSISTENT you
do it.

--
darkroommike

----------
"Nicholas O. Lindan" <see DeleteThis @sig.com> wrote in message
news:4MR3e.2854$44.2785@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
 > "narke" <steven DeleteThis @lczmsoft.com> wrote
 >
  > > In film processing, I believe I need about 5 seconds to drop the
  > > developer into the tank. And, I want to follow the recommended
  > > developing time published by Kodak to procss the roll, but a question
  > > rised, when to begin timming? right before dropping the developer or
  > > right after dropping that?
 >
 > 5 seconds in 12 minutes of developing time will make little difference.
 > The usual advice is to start the timer and pour in and pour out when the
 > timer stops. It takes about the same amount of time in as out and
 > so the pour times cancel.
 >
  > > 1) Using D-76 1:1 diluted, Kodak suggests 12 minus in 68F for small
  > > tank processing. I, however, plan to use D-76D 1:1 (buffered and
  > > diluted), can I use the same time?
 >
 > Yes.
 >
  > > 2) I found Koda only suggests the D-76 1:1 for small tank, but for
  > > large tank (1/2 - 3 1/2 gallon) or sheet he did not list a processing
  > > time for D-76 1:1, can I deduce from that the Kodak do not like anyone
  > > use D-76 1:1 for large tank or sheet proccessing?
 >
 > No.
 >
  > > If this is true, does anyone give me a reason?
 >
 > D-76 1:1 is used once and thrown away. In a 3.5 gallon tank you would
 > still need to throw the developer out after one use - and to use
 > up that much developer in one time would take 56 rolls of film.
 >
 > In large tanks D-76 is used full strength with replenisher.
 > You need to process a lot of film to make this work. It is not
 > unusual to be using the same tank of developer for six months. Actually
 > the developer has been replaced many times over in six months by
 > the addition of the replenisher.
 >
 > --
 > Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
 > Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
 > To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix . netcom . com
 > psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: When to Press the Button of the Timer? 

Large tank is more than just tank volume it also has something to do with
the way the film is introduced to the tank and how it is agitated. The
smallest tank I would consider
"large" would be approximately 2 liters/64 oz would have an open top and
agitation would be "lift and tip".

I don't like replenished systems but they work OK if you process
approximately 50-100 rolls of film per month (more is better). Less than
that you don't get the full benefit of economy nor to you have the
throughput to ensure consistent results. The most frugal method I have
encountered (and the one I use) is to process film in a rotary processor.
It doesn't need to be fancy, I use a Unicolor Film drum and reels and use an
average of 100-125 ml per roll of 35mm film.

--
darkroommike

----------
"Nicholas O. Lindan" <see.TakeThisOut@sig.com> wrote in message
news:YWo4e.4077$44.174@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
 > "narke" <steven.TakeThisOut@lczmsoft.com> wrote
 >
  > > I got a AP develop tank, I feel that's very good. But I still have two
  > > question about it.
 >
  > > 1) There is a table as below marked on the bottom of the tank, and I do
  > > not fully understand its meaning. Can anyone explain that for me?
 >
 > 1 x 135 / 126 = 375cc
 > 2 x 135 / 126 = 650cc
 > 1 x 127 / = 490cc
 > 1 x 120 / 220 = 590cc
 >
  > > My 2nd question is, can I use only 375cc solution for the processing?
 >
 > Yes. If you use shake agitation then when working with 1/2 empty tanks
 > it is a good idea to place an empty reel on top to keep the film reel
 > from rattling around. If your tank holds the lower reel in place with
 > a center stir stick (I think yours does, is it like a Patterson?) then
 > you don't need the 2nd reel.
 >
  > > I remembered people adviced that it is best to let the solution
  > > fill the whole tank even when process one roll
  > > in a two reel tank, that is 650cc in my case.
 >
 > I wouldn't worry: try it and see what happens. You should also wash
 > hands before meals, say prayers before going to bed and call your
 > mother on Sunday.
 >
  > > Actully, since the tank provides a rod (on the center top of the
  > > cover) to stir the solution, so I never need to shake the tank
  > > by invert it.
 >
 > Doesn't it come with a second cap for shake agitation? But twirling
 > is just fine.
 >
 > 126 and 127 are old film sizes. 126 was the original Instamatic
 > cartridge.
 >
 > The swirl agitation can cause a regular pattern of fluid flow,
 > where the flow is the fastest the film will be darker, the
 > result is uneven film or film with streaks.
 >
 > The swirl method is fine, modern reels don't have the same flow
 > problems as they did in the 1950's. Twirl a bit one way, a bit
 > the other, move it back and forth -- you want to have a random
 > flow of developer over the film.
 >
  > > I'v bought a AP tank which
  > > is 650cc for 2 reel. 650cc is great than 16 oz (the upper bound of
  > > small tank according to Kodak's publish) and less than 1/2 gallon ( the
  > > lower bound of large tank).
 >
 > The AP tank would be considered a 'small' tank. Large tanks are like
 > buckets.
 >
 > In summary: use 375ml of developer and agitate as you please, just
 > be sure to do it for 5 seconds every 30 seconds in the developer
 > and 5 seconds every minute (about, it's not critical) in the fix.
 >
 > --
 > Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
 > Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
 > To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix . netcom . com
 > psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: When to Press the Button of the Timer? 

In article <YWo4e.4077$44.174@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net>,
  "Nicholas O. Lindan" <see.RemoveThis@sig.com> writes:
 >
 > "narke" <steven.RemoveThis@lczmsoft.com> wrote
 >
  >> I got a AP develop tank, I feel that's very good. But I still have two
  >> question about it.

My news server doesn't seem to have received narke's original message, and
I'm not sure about some of the attributions. Sorry if something's confused
in my reply because of this....

  >> 1) There is a table as below marked on the bottom of the tank, and I do
  >> not fully understand its meaning. Can anyone explain that for me?
 >
 > 1 x 135 / 126 = 375cc
 > 2 x 135 / 126 = 650cc
 > 1 x 127 / = 490cc
 > 1 x 120 / 220 = 590cc

I've got an AP tank, too, but I'm not sure it's the same model. Anyhow,
mine has this table on the bottom, but some of the numbers are different.
Specifically, the value for one roll of 135/126 film is 325cc, not 375cc.
You might want to check to be sure you read that correctly. Of course,
putting too much chemistry in won't cause problems, aside from the waste
of some chemistry.

  >> I remembered people adviced that it is best to let the solution
  >> fill the whole tank even when process one roll
  >> in a two reel tank, that is 650cc in my case.
 >
 > I wouldn't worry: try it and see what happens.

I've only processed about a dozen rolls of film, but I've not had problems
with using the stated 1-roll volumes. (Actually, I use 350ml because the
math and graduate markings are easier for dilutions.)

  >> Actully, since the tank provides a rod (on the center top of the
  >> cover) to stir the solution, so I never need to shake the tank
  >> by invert it.
 >
 > Doesn't it come with a second cap for shake agitation? But twirling
 > is just fine.

Mine has a cap, and I do inversion agitation. The tank leaks a bit, but
not enough for me to consider it a problem. Leak-phobes might prefer using
the rod for agitation, and move the tank around on the countertop as well.

--
Rod Smith, rodsmith.RemoveThis@rodsbooks.com
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.rodsbooks.com" target="_blank">http://www.rodsbooks.com</a>
Author of books on Linux, FreeBSD, and networking<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: When to Press the Button of the Timer? 

 > Yes. If you use shake agitation then when working with 1/2 empty
tanks
it is a good idea to place an empty reel on top to keep the film reel
from rattling around. If your tank holds the lower reel in place with
a center stir stick (I think yours does, is it like a Patterson?) then
you don't need the 2nd reel.

Yes, it get a lock to firm the reels on the center axis. but still
like to follow you advice and put the 2nd empty reel on the top of
lower loaded reel.


 > In summary: use 375ml of developer and agitate as you please, just
be sure to do it for 5 seconds every 30 seconds in the developer
and 5 seconds every minute (about, it's not critical) in the fix.

Thank you!<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: When to Press the Button of the Timer? 

 > I've got an AP tank, too, but I'm not sure it's the same model.
Anyhow,
mine has this table on the bottom, but some of the numbers are
different.
Specifically, the value for one roll of 135/126 film is 325cc, not
375cc.
You might want to check to be sure you read that correctly. Of course,
putting too much chemistry in won't cause problems, aside from the
waste of some chemistry.

I'v checked the numbers, and I found the 1x127 is actually 460cc,
others are all correct. So I decided to use 400cc for one roll
processing, for the same reason as yours.

 > Mine has a cap, and I do inversion agitation. The tank leaks a bit,
but
not enough for me to consider it a problem. Leak-phobes might prefer
using
the rod for agitation, and move the tank around on the countertop as
well.

I also get a top cap (red), so it supports agiatation as well as
swiring. It is the leak problem which make me double if or not I
really need to agitate by inversion for I am afraid the leak solution
will harm my hand.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: When to Press the Button of the Timer?