Pentax K20D

Tony Polson wrote:
> This was announced last Wednesday. I haven't seen any postings about
> it on here, so I thought I would post one today.
>
> The K20D is based on the excellent K10D. Where it differs is in its
> 14.6 MP Samsung CMOS sensor and Live View. There is also a dynamic
> range expansion feature, based on compression at the time of taking
> the shot, and the SR shake reduction has been improved, offering a
> reduction equivalent to almost 4 stops in certain conditions.
>
> To me the key feature is the sensor, which not only raises Pentax's
> highest pixel count by 45% but is *made by Samsung*. This is
> Samsung's first APS-C size sensor for Pentax and it finally
> consummates the partnership which the two companies entered into a
> couple of years ago. Naturally there is also a near-identical Samsung
> GX-20D.
>
I didn't see any reference to the CMOS being fabricated by Samsung, The
new Sony Alpha A300 will also rumoured to be a 14.6 megapixel CMOS. Sony
already announced and is shipping soon the CAD $600, A200 (10.2 mp) and
will announce the A300 (14.6 mp, live view and swivel screen) and the
A350 at PMA08.

The Nikon D90 *may* also have this CMOS chip.
 >> Stay informed about: Pentax K20D 

"Tony Polson" <tp DeleteThis @nospam.net> wrote in message
news:cjjmp35mg7edn5cj86115emoqvopju62j8@4ax.com...
> This was announced last Wednesday. I haven't seen any postings about
> it on here, so I thought I would post one today.
>
> The K20D is based on the excellent K10D. Where it differs is in its
> 14.6 MP Samsung CMOS sensor and Live View. There is also a dynamic
> range expansion feature, based on compression at the time of taking
> the shot, and the SR shake reduction has been improved, offering a
> reduction equivalent to almost 4 stops in certain conditions.
>
> To me the key feature is the sensor, which not only raises Pentax's
> highest pixel count by 45% but is *made by Samsung*. This is
> Samsung's first APS-C size sensor for Pentax and it finally
> consummates the partnership which the two companies entered into a
> couple of years ago. Naturally there is also a near-identical Samsung
> GX-20D.
>
> Here is the DPReview report on the announcement:
> http://www.dpreview.com/news/0801/08012311pentaxk20d.asp

And there were some who thought Pentax was dying. I think they are just
beginning.
 >> Stay informed about: Pentax K20D 

Darrell Larose <cota348.TakeThisOut@rogers.com> wrote:
>
>I didn't see any reference to the CMOS being fabricated by Samsung


I found two references to this, but I admit that neither was on the
site that I linked to in my original posting.
 >> Stay informed about: Pentax K20D 

On Jan 26, 10:22 am, Tony Polson <t... RemoveThis @nospam.net> wrote:
> This was announced last Wednesday. I haven't seen any postings about
> it on here, so I thought I would post one today.
>
> The K20D is based on the excellent K10D. Where it differs is in its
> 14.6 MP Samsung CMOS sensor and Live View. There is also a dynamic
> range expansion feature, based on compression at the time of taking
> the shot, and the SR shake reduction has been improved, offering a
> reduction equivalent to almost 4 stops in certain conditions.

Yeah, they initially claimed almost 4 stops for the K10D as well,
whereas it turns out to be 2 to 3 stops generally for me... which is
nothing to complain about, especially when it works perfectly with old
manual focus lenses!! I think we'd better wait for more real-world
tests of the K20D's shake reduction...

> To me the key feature is the sensor, which not only raises Pentax's
> highest pixel count by 45% but is *made by Samsung*. This is
> Samsung's first APS-C size sensor for Pentax and it finally
> consummates the partnership which the two companies entered into a
> couple of years ago. Naturally there is also a near-identical Samsung
> GX-20D.

The new sensor will have a lot of benefits! The increased ISO range
to 6400, the live view, and the reported extremely low sensor noise
are awesome though. There has been a bit of disappoint with the
K10D's low-light performance since it only goes to ISO 1600, whereas
the 6 MP K100D went to ISO 3200.

As I understand it, Pentax+Samsung were constrained until now to pick
from the limited number of sensor models produced by Sony. The K10D
used the same sensor as the Nikon D40X while the K100D/Super used the
same one as the Nikon D40. Now that Samsung is producing the sensors,
they can fine-tune the features they want. Awesome!

I have been very happy with my new K10D, so I'm sure the K20D will not
disappoint either. One thing I really want to know is, what will be
the real-world price of the K20D??? The K10D has been such an
unbeatable value. I got mine for less than the price of Canon's 400D
and Nikon's D40X entry-level kits... while the K10D actually has
features competitive with the Nikon D80 and Canon 40D. I hope they'll
be aggressive on pricing the K20D too. More Pentax owners will mean
more lens options, I hope.

Dan
 >> Stay informed about: Pentax K20D 

"Tony Polson" <tp.TakeThisOut@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:5rhpp3t5jf7i0bfgao3h8i5g0qs5c2gns1@4ax.com...
> Darrell Larose <cota348.TakeThisOut@rogers.com> wrote:
>>
>>I didn't see any reference to the CMOS being fabricated by Samsung
>
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0801/08012312pentaxk20dhandson.asp


>
> I found two references to this, but I admit that neither was on the
> site that I linked to in my original posting.
>
 >> Stay informed about: Pentax K20D 

On Jan 28, 2:45 pm, <no_spam_from_scumbags.DeleteThis@die_scumbags.com> wrote:
> Well, one thing to keep in mind is that I don't think any companies numbers
> are real world as a user would get numbers. In a lab under perfect
> conditions you can probably get and the thing is probably capable of 4
> stops. But, labs aren't the real world which is why benchmark testing is a
> big waste of time and only a fool would trust them to make a purchase.
>
> Robert

So how does camera shake in the lab differ from the real world camera
shake? This isn't fuel economy.
 >> Stay informed about: Pentax K20D 

On Jan 28, 6:06 pm, RichA <rander3... DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:
> So how does camera shake in the lab differ from the real world camera
> shake? This isn't fuel economy.

Presumably, Pentax came up with a fairly accurate model for real-world
camera shake, maybe basing it on measured data from one or several
real photographers. Then they designed a shake reduction system to
correct this model camera-shake as well as possible. Finding that
their system corrected the model camera-shake enough to allow 4 stops
longer exposure, they advertise it as such.

But of course, the camera shake from *me* holding the camera is
probably a little bit different from the camera shake when *you* hold
the camera, and both of us are probably not quite the same as the
model that Pentax used. So results vary from individual to
individual.

Dan
 >> Stay informed about: Pentax K20D 

On Jan 28, 5:29 pm, Tony Polson <t... RemoveThis @nospam.net> wrote:
> Dan Lenski <dlen... RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Jan 26, 10:22 am, Tony Polson <t... RemoveThis @nospam.net> wrote:
> >Yeah, they initially claimed almost 4 stops for the K10D as well,
> >whereas it turns out to be 2 to 3 stops generally for me... which is
> >nothing to complain about, especially when it works perfectly with old
> >manual focus lenses!! I think we'd better wait for more real-world
> >tests of the K20D's shake reduction...
>
> True. Manufacturers' claims cannot be relied on. Konica Minolta made
> outrageous claims for the anti-shake on their two DSLRs when all the
> system could manage was slightly better than one stop.

Interesting. I'd never heard that! Nonetheless, I'd say I am very
pleased with the shake reduction of the K10D. I had never used any
kind of image stabilization before, and it's a significant, if not
miraculous, improvement.

> >As I understand it, Pentax+Samsung were constrained until now to pick
> >from the limited number of sensor models produced by Sony. The K10D
> >used the same sensor as the Nikon D40X while the K100D/Super used the
> >same one as the Nikon D40. Now that Samsung is producing the sensors,
> >they can fine-tune the features they want. Awesome!
>
> Exactly. This justifies the Pentax-Samsung collaboration that, until
> now, has looked slightly weird since each model announced so far has
> used Sony sensors.

Yep, that's right. I imagine Pentax has been slightly frustrated by
not being able to get a 10 MP sensor with as good low-light
performance as the K100D... I know a lot of K100D users are a bit
disappointed by the announcement that the K200D will use the K10D's
sensor.

Do you think Pentax+Samsung have had the goal of producing their own
DSLR sensors all along, since the collaboration began? And this is
just the first model brought to market? Or does this represent an
actual shift in their commitment of resources, now that their DSLRs
have some momentum in the market?

> >I have been very happy with my new K10D, so I'm sure the K20D will not
> >disappoint either. One thing I really want to know is, what will be
> >the real-world price of the K20D??? The K10D has been such an
> >unbeatable value. I got mine for less than the price of Canon's 400D
> >and Nikon's D40X entry-level kits... while the K10D actually has
> >features competitive with the Nikon D80 and Canon 40D. I hope they'll
> >be aggressive on pricing the K20D too. More Pentax owners will mean
> >more lens options, I hope.
>
> In the UK, the suggested retail price for the K20D is about 50% higher
> than that of the K10D. By the end of 2008, I expect the K20D to sell
> at the same price as the K10D sold for at the end of 2007.

If it works out that way, no complaints from me!

Dan
 >> Stay informed about: Pentax K20D 

Dan Lenski <dlenski.DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Jan 26, 10:22 am, Tony Polson <t....DeleteThis@nospam.net> wrote:
>> This was announced last Wednesday. I haven't seen any postings about
>> it on here, so I thought I would post one today.
>>
>> The K20D is based on the excellent K10D. Where it differs is in its
>> 14.6 MP Samsung CMOS sensor and Live View. There is also a dynamic
>> range expansion feature, based on compression at the time of taking
>> the shot, and the SR shake reduction has been improved, offering a
>> reduction equivalent to almost 4 stops in certain conditions.
>
>Yeah, they initially claimed almost 4 stops for the K10D as well,
>whereas it turns out to be 2 to 3 stops generally for me... which is
>nothing to complain about, especially when it works perfectly with old
>manual focus lenses!! I think we'd better wait for more real-world
>tests of the K20D's shake reduction...


True. Manufacturers' claims cannot be relied on. Konica Minolta made
outrageous claims for the anti-shake on their two DSLRs when all the
system could manage was slightly better than one stop.


>> To me the key feature is the sensor, which not only raises Pentax's
>> highest pixel count by 45% but is *made by Samsung*. This is
>> Samsung's first APS-C size sensor for Pentax and it finally
>> consummates the partnership which the two companies entered into a
>> couple of years ago. Naturally there is also a near-identical Samsung
>> GX-20D.
>
>The new sensor will have a lot of benefits! The increased ISO range
>to 6400, the live view, and the reported extremely low sensor noise
>are awesome though. There has been a bit of disappoint with the
>K10D's low-light performance since it only goes to ISO 1600, whereas
>the 6 MP K100D went to ISO 3200.
>
>As I understand it, Pentax+Samsung were constrained until now to pick
>from the limited number of sensor models produced by Sony. The K10D
>used the same sensor as the Nikon D40X while the K100D/Super used the
>same one as the Nikon D40. Now that Samsung is producing the sensors,
>they can fine-tune the features they want. Awesome!


Exactly. This justifies the Pentax-Samsung collaboration that, until
now, has looked slightly weird since each model announced so far has
used Sony sensors.


>I have been very happy with my new K10D, so I'm sure the K20D will not
>disappoint either. One thing I really want to know is, what will be
>the real-world price of the K20D??? The K10D has been such an
>unbeatable value. I got mine for less than the price of Canon's 400D
>and Nikon's D40X entry-level kits... while the K10D actually has
>features competitive with the Nikon D80 and Canon 40D. I hope they'll
>be aggressive on pricing the K20D too. More Pentax owners will mean
>more lens options, I hope.


In the UK, the suggested retail price for the K20D is about 50% higher
than that of the K10D. By the end of 2008, I expect the K20D to sell
at the same price as the K10D sold for at the end of 2007.
 >> Stay informed about: Pentax K20D 

On Jan 28, 10:08 pm, Tony Polson <t....RemoveThis@nospam.net> wrote:
> The Pentax/Samsung shake reduction works in a different way to other
> in-camera systems. The up-and-down and side-to-side movement is
> compensating by moving the sensor up-and-down and side-to-side as in
> other systems. However there is additional compensation for rotating
> the camera/lens combination about the lens axis, which the other
> in-camera systems don't have.
>
> If you jab rather than slowly squeeze the shutter button, the right
> side of the camera goes down slightly, rotating the camera/lens
> combination about the lens axis. The Pentax/Samsung system
> compensates by rotating the sensor about the lens axis in the opposite
> direction. It's very clever, and it seems to work very well.

I didn't realize the other in-body stabilization systems lacked
rotational stabilization. Definitely a good addition.

I have been wondering how the sensor suspension is physically
constructed. Springs? Some kind of electromechanical device? Coils
with magnetically tunable stiffness? The system clearly responds
differently depending on focal length, as I've found out with old
manual focus lenses when I forget to set the right focal length. I've
tried lightly jiggling the camera with the mirror up in sensor
cleaning mode, and couldn't see any visible motion of the sensor...
damped or otherwise.

> The K10D sensor is an excellent sensor, capable of resolving fine
> detail. I don't think the K200D buyers should be too disappointed
> with a K10D sensor at a much lower price.

Well at the moment, you can get the K10D kit + lens for about $600 in
the USA, which is well below the K200D's list price when it becomes
available. Marketing-wise, it might not be the best strategy for
Pentax to take some K10D features and put them in the K200D... since
it gives customers a clear picture of exactly what they're NOT
getting. Although if the prices come down to the level of the current
K100D Super, around $450 for the kit, that will be a phenomenal deal.

> When the collaboration was announced, both companies made great play
> of the strengths that the other brought to the relationship. At that
> time, Pentax made it clear that Samsung's expertise was in sensor
> design and manufacture. Because all Pentax and Samsung DSLRs to date
> have used Sony sensors, we have had to wait until now to see that
> Samsung genuinely does have something to offer.

If the rave reviews are to be believed, it's the lowest-noise APS-C
sensor ever produced. Would love to know how they pulled it off.

> Until now, Sony has had a stranglehold on the sensor market, supplying
> the majority of P&S digicam sensors plus DSLR sensors for Nikon,
> Pentax, Samsung and Konica Minolta, whose DSLRs Sony took over. The
> profitability of Sony's digital imaging division has always been
> underpinned by its huge earnings from selling sensors.
>
> Now that Pentax has an alternative supplier for one DSLR model, you
> can be sure there will be more Samsung sensors to follow soon. Nikon
> is designing its own sensors (although Sony currently manufactures
> them) so you can see Sony being squeezed a little. P&S sales have
> reached a plateau and will drop. And with very disappointing sales of
> the Sony Alpha DSLRs, there is not much for Sony to fall back on.

More competition for DSLR sensors is hopefully a good thing for
consumers! Any idea when Nikon's own sensors will make their first
appearance?

Dan
 >> Stay informed about: Pentax K20D 

In article
<4047d198-d547-4e12-a0af-a23c01a7200a RemoveThis @d70g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
Dan Lenski <dlenski RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:

> I have been wondering how the sensor suspension is physically
> constructed. Springs? Some kind of electromechanical device? Coils
> with magnetically tunable stiffness? The system clearly responds
> differently depending on focal length, as I've found out with old
> manual focus lenses when I forget to set the right focal length. I've
> tried lightly jiggling the camera with the mirror up in sensor
> cleaning mode, and couldn't see any visible motion of the sensor...
> damped or otherwise.

it's probably not engaged in sensor cleaning mode. try an exposure of
a few seconds, but i suspect the distance it moves won't be very
noticable.

> If the rave reviews are to be believed, it's the lowest-noise APS-C
> sensor ever produced. Would love to know how they pulled it off.

that remains to be seen, and also how much of it is due to noise
reduction after the fact versus true low noise from the sensor.

> More competition for DSLR sensors is hopefully a good thing for
> consumers! Any idea when Nikon's own sensors will make their first
> appearance?

nikon designed sensors appeared with the d2h a few years ago (lbcast),
and are currently in the d3. nikon also has its own modifications to
the sony made sensors in their other cameras (for instance, 4 channel
readout on the d200).
 >> Stay informed about: Pentax K20D 

Dan Lenski <dlenski DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:
>Tony Polson wrote:
>> True. Manufacturers' claims cannot be relied on. Konica Minolta made
>> outrageous claims for the anti-shake on their two DSLRs when all the
>> system could manage was slightly better than one stop.
>
>Interesting. I'd never heard that! Nonetheless, I'd say I am very
>pleased with the shake reduction of the K10D. I had never used any
>kind of image stabilization before, and it's a significant, if not
>miraculous, improvement.


The Pentax/Samsung shake reduction works in a different way to other
in-camera systems. The up-and-down and side-to-side movement is
compensating by moving the sensor up-and-down and side-to-side as in
other systems. However there is additional compensation for rotating
the camera/lens combination about the lens axis, which the other
in-camera systems don't have.

If you jab rather than slowly squeeze the shutter button, the right
side of the camera goes down slightly, rotating the camera/lens
combination about the lens axis. The Pentax/Samsung system
compensates by rotating the sensor about the lens axis in the opposite
direction. It's very clever, and it seems to work very well.


>I imagine Pentax has been slightly frustrated by
>not being able to get a 10 MP sensor with as good low-light
>performance as the K100D... I know a lot of K100D users are a bit
>disappointed by the announcement that the K200D will use the K10D's
>sensor.


The K10D sensor is an excellent sensor, capable of resolving fine
detail. I don't think the K200D buyers should be too disappointed
with a K10D sensor at a much lower price.


>Do you think Pentax+Samsung have had the goal of producing their own
>DSLR sensors all along, since the collaboration began? And this is
>just the first model brought to market? Or does this represent an
>actual shift in their commitment of resources, now that their DSLRs
>have some momentum in the market?


When the collaboration was announced, both companies made great play
of the strengths that the other brought to the relationship. At that
time, Pentax made it clear that Samsung's expertise was in sensor
design and manufacture. Because all Pentax and Samsung DSLRs to date
have used Sony sensors, we have had to wait until now to see that
Samsung genuinely does have something to offer.

Until now, Sony has had a stranglehold on the sensor market, supplying
the majority of P&S digicam sensors plus DSLR sensors for Nikon,
Pentax, Samsung and Konica Minolta, whose DSLRs Sony took over. The
profitability of Sony's digital imaging division has always been
underpinned by its huge earnings from selling sensors.

Now that Pentax has an alternative supplier for one DSLR model, you
can be sure there will be more Samsung sensors to follow soon. Nikon
is designing its own sensors (although Sony currently manufactures
them) so you can see Sony being squeezed a little. P&S sales have
reached a plateau and will drop. And with very disappointing sales of
the Sony Alpha DSLRs, there is not much for Sony to fall back on.


>> In the UK, the suggested retail price for the K20D is about 50% higher
>> than that of the K10D. By the end of 2008, I expect the K20D to sell
>> at the same price as the K10D sold for at the end of 2007.
>
>If it works out that way, no complaints from me!


I agree. I think the K20D will be a very popular DSLR, helping to
increase Pentax's and Samsung's market share, and cementing Pentax's
place as No.3 in the DSLR sales statistics, with Sony, Olympus and
Panasonic trailing behind.
 >> Stay informed about: Pentax K20D 

Dan Lenski <dlenski.RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>I didn't realize the other in-body stabilization systems lacked
>rotational stabilization. Definitely a good addition.


As far as I know, Pentax has the only system that does this.


>I have been wondering how the sensor suspension is physically
>constructed. Springs? Some kind of electromechanical device? Coils
>with magnetically tunable stiffness? The system clearly responds
>differently depending on focal length, as I've found out with old
>manual focus lenses when I forget to set the right focal length. I've
>tried lightly jiggling the camera with the mirror up in sensor
>cleaning mode, and couldn't see any visible motion of the sensor...
>damped or otherwise.


I would not be surprised if SR was turned off in sensor cleaning mode.


>> The K10D sensor is an excellent sensor, capable of resolving fine
>> detail. I don't think the K200D buyers should be too disappointed
>> with a K10D sensor at a much lower price.
>
>Well at the moment, you can get the K10D kit + lens for about $600 in
>the USA, which is well below the K200D's list price when it becomes
>available. Marketing-wise, it might not be the best strategy for
>Pentax to take some K10D features and put them in the K200D... since
>it gives customers a clear picture of exactly what they're NOT
>getting. Although if the prices come down to the level of the current
>K100D Super, around $450 for the kit, that will be a phenomenal deal.


Wait and see. I doubt that Pentax would offer a set of features and
prices that caused potential customers to go elsewhere.

It is beginning to become apparent just why Hoya Corporation snapped
up Pentax in 2007. Pentax was a sleeping giant. There were some
excellent products in the pipeline, as we can now see. I suspect
Pentax has plenty more in development, too.


>If the rave reviews are to be believed, it's the lowest-noise APS-C
>sensor ever produced. Would love to know how they pulled it off.


It's a bit early to place much reliance on reviews, when they will
probably be no more than previews of pre-production bodies. But if
the claims are true, Pentax (and Samsung) will see substantial growth
in their market share in 2008.


>More competition for DSLR sensors is hopefully a good thing for
>consumers! Any idea when Nikon's own sensors will make their first
>appearance?


They already did - the D2X had the first.
 >> Stay informed about: Pentax K20D