NIMH (rechargeable) and Alkaline non rechargeable

Paul Heslop wrote:
> Pebble wrote:
>> Thanks Paul,
>> Still don't know if they are swappable though? My camera for instance takes alkaline OR NIMH, it mentions in the manual . Of course I use NIMH because the alkaline batteries send you broke. What I meant was if a radio, torch etc doesn't mention in the manual about using NIMH, just gives info like "insert 2 AA Alkaline batteries as shown in the diagram below" can NIMH be used in place of them?
>
> I think usually they recommend alkaline due to its having a long
> lasting effect, plus if I remember it rightly when they drain they
> don't ooze that gunk all over, so for torches etc they are much better
> than the old style battery. I am not sure that NIMH would last as long
> in a standard device as an alkaline but as long as you don't mix and
> match they should be fine.
>

All my standard flashlights (torches)have NIMH batteries. The newer
hi-powered flashlights are supposed to use li-ion batteries. I also use
NIMH batteries in my portable radios, clocks, CD players, automatic lawn
sprinkler system, home automatic heating/air conditioning thermostat,
and just about anywhere alkaline batteries are called for. Exception
would be where the manufacturer states NIMH batteries should not be
used. I once read that notice for an article I bought but now I can't
remember what that article was.
 >> Stay informed about: NIMH (rechargeable) and Alkaline non rechargeable 

On Thu, 18 Jan 2007 12:59:49 +0000, Pebble wrote:

> Hi all,
> Coming to grips with battery terminology. Have read lots of tutorials, opinions, grazed google posts and haven't really found out if one can put charged NIMH batteries in the place of non rechargable Alkaline batteries. I realise that voltage seems to be higher in Alkaline non rechargeables than the NIMH rechargeables. I think there is a loss of quality in signal for torches and radios and some other gear ??
> Trickle charge versus fast charge ??
> Thanks, all opinions welcome.

I've not observed any real compatibility issues. IMHO the faster the
charger, the shorter the ultimate life of the batteries, generally. That
is probably not so much of an issue if you buy an upper line 'intelligent'
charger.
 >> Stay informed about: NIMH (rechargeable) and Alkaline non rechargeable 

On Thu, 18 Jan 2007 16:16:50 GMT, Paul Heslop wrote:

>> All my standard flashlights (torches)have NIMH batteries. The newer
>> hi-powered flashlights are supposed to use li-ion batteries. I also use
>> NIMH batteries in my portable radios, clocks, CD players, automatic lawn
>> sprinkler system, home automatic heating/air conditioning thermostat,
>> and just about anywhere alkaline batteries are called for. Exception
>> would be where the manufacturer states NIMH batteries should not be
>> used. I once read that notice for an article I bought but now I can't
>> remember what that article was.
>
> I don't think I have ever seen that notice on anything, but then again
> I might have just binned the instructions :O)

I also have never seen that notice, and as far as I can tell it's
because the primary reason would be to avoid using NiMH cells in
situations where they could easily become damaged, or where with
some poorly designed electronic devices, the rapid voltage drop that
occurs when one or two cells go flat could cause the loss of memory,
such as radio presets, configuration settings in mp3 players, etc.

Fortunately, many digital electronic devices will power off before
battery damage can occur, but as I said, there are some devices
where this doesn't hold true. For those, the normally higher cost
of using alkaline batteries can be lower than NiMH batteries that
become damaged after only a small number of charge cycles.

Using NiMH batteries in analog devices can often be very bad for
the life of the batteries, since they'll usually continue drawing a
significant current long after one or more cells become depleted.
With flashlights that use filament bulbs, the main danger would be
if they were used unattended, such as letting a camp lantern stay on
overnight. But in normal use, as soon as the first NiMH cell
becomes exhausted, the light output would drop to such a low level
(if there's any remaining light output at all), that the user would
probably immediately turn of the light, thereby protecting the cells
from damage.

In my portable CD players that use only a single AA cell, there's
little risk in using NiMH cells, and that's what I generally use.
But in CD players that use at least two AA cells, if the player uses
even a very small amount of current when powered off, NiMH cells can
be damaged if they go for many weeks or months unattended. If the
cells are recharged soon after going dead there's probably nothing
to worry about. But if you catch it too late, there's a very good
change that damage will occur. This may not be immediately
realized, however since the damaged cells can usually still be
charged, but they may have lost a considerable amount of capacity.
If the CD player can then play for another 15 hours instead of the
normal 40 hours per charge, most people may go for a *long* time
(many charge cycles) before noticing that anything is amiss. These
damaged cells may also be rejected by *some* smart chargers, even
though they are not entirely useless. Out of several smart
chargers, I only have one that can be counted on to be able to
charge these slightly damaged NiMH cells.

As for the "newer hi-powered flashlights" that Nick mentioned, the
only ones I'm aware of that use rechargeable batteries are models
used by police, firemen, military, etc., and they tend to use
proprietary NiCad or NiMH battery packs, not Li-Ion, and are usually
very expensive, costing several hundreds of dollars. That's not to
say that there aren't any Li-Ion models, but I haven't seen them.
What Nick may be thinking of are the multiple watt, *very* bright
LED lights that are designed to use non-rechargeable lithium
batteries. And it's not that they need to use lithium batteries, as
several manufacturers are now making high powered LED lights that
use alkaline batteries. The best ones use voltage regulators, so
that even as the alkaline battery voltages drop, the light output
doesn't fall off. I got one of the new MagLites about 6 months ago
and its output is today just as bright as they day I put the
batteries in it. These D cell batteries were removed from another
device because for it, the battery voltage was getting very low.
 >> Stay informed about: NIMH (rechargeable) and Alkaline non rechargeable 

Pebble wrote:
>
> Hi all,
> Coming to grips with battery terminology. Have read lots of tutorials, opinions, grazed google posts and haven't really found out if one can put charged NIMH batteries in the place of non rechargable Alkaline batteries. I realise that voltage seems to be higher in Alkaline non rechargeables than the NIMH rechargeables. I think there is a loss of quality in signal for torches and radios and some other gear ??
> Trickle charge versus fast charge ??
> Thanks, all opinions welcome.
>
> --
> * * Pebble in Boulder * *
> who would never underestimate the humble floppy

NIMH are often preferred over alkaline. I don't know if it is still
true but there was a time where alkaline were not good for digital
cameras etc, they drained quite quickly. The real problem with NIMH is
they don't like to be standing around doing nothing. If you leave them
for a while and come back to them they could be drained, so you have
to kind of stay on top of them. Myself I usually have two sets, one in
camera and one charged ready for replacing, but due to ill health I
have hardly used my camera and on checking yesterday I found the
batteries were drained, so popped in the replacements and they had
drained too.


--
Paul (Need a lift she said much obliged)
-------------------------------------------------------
Stop and Look
http://www.geocities.com/dreamst8me/
 >> Stay informed about: NIMH (rechargeable) and Alkaline non rechargeable 

Thanks Paul,
Still don't know if they are swappable though? My camera for instance takes alkaline OR NIMH, it mentions in the manual . Of course I use NIMH because the alkaline batteries send you broke. What I meant was if a radio, torch etc doesn't mention in the manual about using NIMH, just gives info like "insert 2 AA Alkaline batteries as shown in the diagram below" can NIMH be used in place of them?
--
* * Pebble in Boulder * *
who would never underestimate the humble floppy

"Paul Heslop" <paul.heslop.TakeThisOut@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message news:45AF727E.55914A4E@blueyonder.co.uk...
> Pebble wrote:
> >
> > Hi all,
> > Coming to grips with battery terminology. Have read lots of tutorials, opinions, grazed google posts and haven't really found out if one can put charged NIMH batteries in the place of non rechargable Alkaline batteries. I realise that voltage seems to be higher in Alkaline non rechargeables than the NIMH rechargeables. I think there is a loss of quality in signal for torches and radios and some other gear ??
> > Trickle charge versus fast charge ??
> > Thanks, all opinions welcome.
> >
> > --
> > * * Pebble in Boulder * *
> > who would never underestimate the humble floppy
>
> NIMH are often preferred over alkaline. I don't know if it is still
> true but there was a time where alkaline were not good for digital
> cameras etc, they drained quite quickly. The real problem with NIMH is
> they don't like to be standing around doing nothing. If you leave them
> for a while and come back to them they could be drained, so you have
> to kind of stay on top of them. Myself I usually have two sets, one in
> camera and one charged ready for replacing, but due to ill health I
> have hardly used my camera and on checking yesterday I found the
> batteries were drained, so popped in the replacements and they had
> drained too.
>
>
> --
> Paul (Need a lift she said much obliged)
> -------------------------------------------------------
> Stop and Look
> http://www.geocities.com/dreamst8me/
 >> Stay informed about: NIMH (rechargeable) and Alkaline non rechargeable 

Hi Paul

NiMH are a good replacement for Alkalines in applications that have a high
drain rate (ie. require a releative large amount of power over a short
period of time) or used constatly and recharged regulary. These applications
include cameras, flashes, walkie talkies, digital music players, etc. In
general NiMH batteries can be substituted for Alkaline batteries, check your
owners manual of the item to know for sure.

Alkaline batteries work best for items used infrequenly. Like emergency
flashlights since they don't run down rapidly. Remember NiMH batteries will
self discharge at 40% per month.

For example, I use NiMH batteries in my camera flash. I use Alkaline
batteries in my led flashlight that I keep in my truck.

In general a trickle charge is better for the batteries and may be harder on
your patence. I generally like to use a quick charger, currently a Duracell
15 min. charger. It has a fan below the batteries so that they do not get
hot.

Hope this helps.

William

--
Message posted via PhotoKB.com
http://www.photokb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/digital-photo/200701/1
 >> Stay informed about: NIMH (rechargeable) and Alkaline non rechargeable 

"Bob Salomon" <bob_salomon DeleteThis @mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:bob_salomon-84831C.06032218012007@news.tellurian.net...
> In article <6c780d1b9c253@uwe>,
> "William Hathaway via PhotoKB.com" <u15201@uwe> wrote:
>
>> Hi Paul
>>
> Remember NiMH batteries will
>> self discharge at 40% per month.
>>
> No, some types of the latest NiMh AA cells come fully charged and will
> hold their charge for up to a year without use or recharging.
>
> Ansmann makes some cells that do this that are NiMh. Some companies
> maxes a similar claim for AA cells that are not NiMh. Panasonic, for
> instance.
>
> --
> To reply no_ HPMarketing Corp.

I saw a Pop Photo avert for these "Enerloop" batteries by Sanyo a few months
back. I guess Rayovac also has these slow self discharge NiMH batteries. The
quick self discharge problem is the only thing keeping me from adopting to
them. Any major retailer carrying them yet?
-S
 >> Stay informed about: NIMH (rechargeable) and Alkaline non rechargeable 

"SimonLW" <nospam DeleteThis @donet.com> writes:
> I saw a Pop Photo avert for these "Enerloop" batteries by Sanyo a
> few months back. I guess Rayovac also has these slow self discharge
> NiMH batteries. The quick self discharge problem is the only thing
> keeping me from adopting to them. Any major retailer carrying them
> yet?

Ritz Camera has Eneloop.
 >> Stay informed about: NIMH (rechargeable) and Alkaline non rechargeable 

On Thu, 18 Jan 2007 13:48:36 -0500, SimonLW wrote:

> I saw a Pop Photo avert for these "Enerloop" batteries by Sanyo a few months
> back. I guess Rayovac also has these slow self discharge NiMH batteries. The
> quick self discharge problem is the only thing keeping me from adopting to
> them. Any major retailer carrying them yet?

They're available from several sources. I think that Walmart and
Ritz have been mentioned here before as having Eneloops. For
several months Circuit City has been selling Eneloops as well as
RayOVac's version, which they call Hybrid batteries. I've been
using both brands, and so far so good.
 >> Stay informed about: NIMH (rechargeable) and Alkaline non rechargeable 

Thanks William and Paul,
I've never seen in a manual "don't use NIMH" so I suppose is OK. I've got a radio that takes Alkaline batteries and have substituded NIMH but have been told that they don't pick up signal quite so well, voltage issues or something. Haven't noticed this yet, but when I go bush (600 km from nearest pub!) I might then.
Yeah, trickle charges are a pain, but I think they're probably better. I keep some charged and well sealed in the freezer, defrost when needed. Slows the self discharge down, apparently. Didn't know it was normally 40% per month though! Wow
I'd say those latest NIMH that hold their charge for over a year would have a hefty price tag!
Thanks for all your help.
--
B-)
Pebble in Boulder

"William Hathaway via PhotoKB.com" <u15201@uwe> wrote in message news:6c780d1b9c253@uwe...
> Hi Paul
>
> NiMH are a good replacement for Alkalines in applications that have a high
> drain rate (ie. require a releative large amount of power over a short
> period of time) or used constatly and recharged regulary. These applications
> include cameras, flashes, walkie talkies, digital music players, etc. In
> general NiMH batteries can be substituted for Alkaline batteries, check your
> owners manual of the item to know for sure.
>
> Alkaline batteries work best for items used infrequenly. Like emergency
> flashlights since they don't run down rapidly. Remember NiMH batteries will
> self discharge at 40% per month.
>
> For example, I use NiMH batteries in my camera flash. I use Alkaline
> batteries in my led flashlight that I keep in my truck.
>
> In general a trickle charge is better for the batteries and may be harder on
> your patence. I generally like to use a quick charger, currently a Duracell
> 15 min. charger. It has a fan below the batteries so that they do not get
> hot.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> William
>
> --
> Message posted via PhotoKB.com
> http://www.photokb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/digital-photo/200701/1
>
 >> Stay informed about: NIMH (rechargeable) and Alkaline non rechargeable 

Pebble wrote:
>
> Thanks Paul,
> Still don't know if they are swappable though? My camera for instance takes alkaline OR NIMH, it mentions in the manual . Of course I use NIMH because the alkaline batteries send you broke. What I meant was if a radio, torch etc doesn't mention in the manual about using NIMH, just gives info like "insert 2 AA Alkaline batteries as shown in the diagram below" can NIMH be used in place of them?

I think usually they recommend alkaline due to its having a long
lasting effect, plus if I remember it rightly when they drain they
don't ooze that gunk all over, so for torches etc they are much better
than the old style battery. I am not sure that NIMH would last as long
in a standard device as an alkaline but as long as you don't mix and
match they should be fine.

--
Paul (Need a lift she said much obliged)
-------------------------------------------------------
Stop and Look
http://www.geocities.com/dreamst8me/
 >> Stay informed about: NIMH (rechargeable) and Alkaline non rechargeable 

"William Hathaway via PhotoKB.com" wrote:
>
> Hi Paul
>
> NiMH are a good replacement for Alkalines in applications that have a high
> drain rate (ie. require a releative large amount of power over a short
> period of time) or used constatly and recharged regulary. These applications
> include cameras, flashes, walkie talkies, digital music players, etc. In
> general NiMH batteries can be substituted for Alkaline batteries, check your
> owners manual of the item to know for sure.
>
> Alkaline batteries work best for items used infrequenly. Like emergency
> flashlights since they don't run down rapidly. Remember NiMH batteries will
> self discharge at 40% per month.
>
> For example, I use NiMH batteries in my camera flash. I use Alkaline
> batteries in my led flashlight that I keep in my truck.
>
> In general a trickle charge is better for the batteries and may be harder on
> your patence. I generally like to use a quick charger, currently a Duracell
> 15 min. charger. It has a fan below the batteries so that they do not get
> hot.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> William
>
> --
> Message posted via PhotoKB.com
> http://www.photokb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/digital-photo/200701/1

Clears a few things up for me :O)
--
Paul (Need a lift she said much obliged)
-------------------------------------------------------
Stop and Look
http://www.geocities.com/dreamst8me/
 >> Stay informed about: NIMH (rechargeable) and Alkaline non rechargeable 

ASAAR wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Jan 2007 16:16:50 GMT, Paul Heslop wrote:
>
> >> All my standard flashlights (torches)have NIMH batteries. The newer
> >> hi-powered flashlights are supposed to use li-ion batteries. I also use
> >> NIMH batteries in my portable radios, clocks, CD players, automatic lawn
> >> sprinkler system, home automatic heating/air conditioning thermostat,
> >> and just about anywhere alkaline batteries are called for. Exception
> >> would be where the manufacturer states NIMH batteries should not be
> >> used. I once read that notice for an article I bought but now I can't
> >> remember what that article was.
> >
> > I don't think I have ever seen that notice on anything, but then again
> > I might have just binned the instructions :O)
>
> I also have never seen that notice, and as far as I can tell it's
> because the primary reason would be to avoid using NiMH cells in
> situations where they could easily become damaged, or where with
> some poorly designed electronic devices, the rapid voltage drop that
> occurs when one or two cells go flat could cause the loss of memory,
> such as radio presets, configuration settings in mp3 players, etc.

Mag Lite flashlights specifically don't recommend the use of
rechargeable batteries. I think part of the reason is that a NiMH
cell starts off at 1.4V (at best) or maybe 1.3V a day after being
charged. A fresh alkaline cell starts off at 1.6V. A light on a
fresh set of alkalines will be brighter as a result. These are not
high-drain devices where NiMH is more efficient.

The bulbs might also be designed with the internal resistance of
alkalines in mind to maximize life. Just a thought. I've heard of
some older camera flashes that would die when NiMH batteries
were used because they were designed to use the internal resistance
of alkalines as a current limiter.

I have a Petzl LED headlamp, and the instructions state that
NiMH rechargeables are acceptable. I'll almost always recharge
them quickly before cell reversal can happen.

> Fortunately, many digital electronic devices will power off before
> battery damage can occur, but as I said, there are some devices
> where this doesn't hold true. For those, the normally higher cost
> of using alkaline batteries can be lower than NiMH batteries that
> become damaged after only a small number of charge cycles.

I used NiMH AAAs in a Mag Lite Solitaire. Bad idea. It didn't mean
cell reversal but constantly deep discharging the battery when the
cap turned on in my pocket killed the capacity quickly.

> Using NiMH batteries in analog devices can often be very bad for
> the life of the batteries, since they'll usually continue drawing a
> significant current long after one or more cells become depleted.
> With flashlights that use filament bulbs, the main danger would be
> if they were used unattended, such as letting a camp lantern stay on
> overnight. But in normal use, as soon as the first NiMH cell
> becomes exhausted, the light output would drop to such a low level
> (if there's any remaining light output at all), that the user would
> probably immediately turn of the light, thereby protecting the cells
> from damage.

Low battery warning and/or protection diodes would help. That
would require circuitry that would cost too much for the average
flashlight.

> As for the "newer hi-powered flashlights" that Nick mentioned, the
> only ones I'm aware of that use rechargeable batteries are models
> used by police, firemen, military, etc., and they tend to use
> proprietary NiCad or NiMH battery packs, not Li-Ion, and are usually
> very expensive, costing several hundreds of dollars. That's not to
> say that there aren't any Li-Ion models, but I haven't seen them.
> What Nick may be thinking of are the multiple watt, *very* bright
> LED lights that are designed to use non-rechargeable lithium
> batteries. And it's not that they need to use lithium batteries, as
> several manufacturers are now making high powered LED lights that
> use alkaline batteries. The best ones use voltage regulators, so
> that even as the alkaline battery voltages drop, the light output
> doesn't fall off. I got one of the new MagLites about 6 months ago
> and its output is today just as bright as they day I put the
> batteries in it. These D cell batteries were removed from another
> device because for it, the battery voltage was getting very low.

Anything that expensive probably uses protection circuits to keep
the batteries from cell reversal or deep discharge. Many have low
battery indicators. Frankly it's a better idea because they can be
topped off every night with a reasonable expectation of charge life.
That would compare with alkaline cells that are left in until they run
out, and without having a good idea how much battery life is there.
Of course there could be something like a regular schedule where
alkalines are replaced every other day, but that's rather wasteful.
 >> Stay informed about: NIMH (rechargeable) and Alkaline non rechargeable