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Higher-end compact or SLR for me?

 
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Daniel Lenski

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Since: Nov 30, 2007
Posts: 39



(Msg. 31) Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 4:22 am
Post subject: Re: Higher-end compact or SLR for me? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Fri, 30 Nov 2007 22:44:26 -0500, Neil Harrington wrote:
>> There are a few exceptions, though; a 50mm f/1.8, for example, is the
>> cheapest lens nikon sells, is fast, very light and very sharp when
>> stopped down. A 85mm f/1.8 is also a potentially useful lens (for
>> portraits, for instance). Neither of these autofocuses on the d40.
>
> Right. However, I have both the 50/1.8 and the 85/1.8 and they do
> manually focus easily on the D40 with the little focus indicator in the
> viewfinder. Too bad it's down there in the corner, but short of
> replacing the screen it's the best available solution I suppose.
>

I gather the 50/1.8 is largely designed for portraits and other uses where
fast autofocus wouldn't be as critical. Do you find it's still fun to use?

> Also a difference in sync speed -- 1/500 for the D40, 1/200 for the
> D40x.

What exactly is sync speed? I read somewhere that it's something pros
care about but newbies don't understand, but that's all I got Smile

Dan

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Neil Harrington

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Since: Nov 16, 2007
Posts: 306



(Msg. 32) Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 4:22 am
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"Daniel Lenski" <dlenski RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote in message
news:pk54j.78381$Um6.59638@newssvr12.news.prodigy.net...
> On Fri, 30 Nov 2007 22:44:26 -0500, Neil Harrington wrote:
>>> There are a few exceptions, though; a 50mm f/1.8, for example, is the
>>> cheapest lens nikon sells, is fast, very light and very sharp when
>>> stopped down. A 85mm f/1.8 is also a potentially useful lens (for
>>> portraits, for instance). Neither of these autofocuses on the d40.
>>
>> Right. However, I have both the 50/1.8 and the 85/1.8 and they do
>> manually focus easily on the D40 with the little focus indicator in the
>> viewfinder. Too bad it's down there in the corner, but short of
>> replacing the screen it's the best available solution I suppose.
>>
>
> I gather the 50/1.8 is largely designed for portraits and other uses where
> fast autofocus wouldn't be as critical. Do you find it's still fun to
> use?

I do, but frankly I've used it only a few times on the D40 -- mostly out of
curiosity to see how well it could be used focusing manually. It works well
for that if you're not in too much of a hurry, but I use it mostly on my D80
on which of course it does autofocus. I haven't yet used it for
portraiture, mostly for available light shooting where that f/1.8 aperture
is a delight.

What it was originally *designed* for of course was use as a normal lens on
a 35. On a Nikon DSLR with the usual 1.5x lens factor it's equivalent to
75mm on a 35, which is sort of an odd focal length -- somewhat too long for
a normal but a bit short for a portrait lens, though that's mostly a matter
of personal taste anyway.

>
>> Also a difference in sync speed -- 1/500 for the D40, 1/200 for the
>> D40x.
>
> What exactly is sync speed? I read somewhere that it's something pros
> care about but newbies don't understand, but that's all I got Smile

Sync speed (more fully, flash sync speed) is the fastest shutter speed on a
camera with a focal-plane shutter, such as a typical SLR or DSLR, at which
you can use flash. (There are some exceptions for certain kinds of flash,
but I won't go into those here.)

Focal-plane shutters are located just in front of the sensor (or film), and
work by moving two curtains in front of it. These nowadays are made of thin
metal strips but are still called curtains. The first curtain moves out of
the way, exposing the sensor to light from the lens, then the second curtain
moves to cover it again, ending the exposure. For an exposure of 1/100
second for example, the second curtain would be released 1/100 second after
the first. When flash is used, usually it is fired at the moment the first
curtain is fully open, so the exposure is made over the whole sensor.

But at higher shutter speeds, the second curtain has started to move before
the first curtain has completed its travel. This means that the entire
sensor cannot be exposed at the same instant, because exposure is being made
by the space or slit between the shutter curtains which travels over the
sensor. This would be a major problem for conventional electronic flash.

So sync speed, *generally speaking*, is the highest shutter speed at which
the second curtain has not yet started to move before the first curtain has
finished its travel. This is usually not higher than about 1/200 second,
though this varies somewhat between cameras.

In a few cases, however, the camera is able to get a higher sync speed by
switching the sensor on and off in a substantially shorter time than the
shutter is actually open, and coordinating this with the firing of the
flash. This is how the D40 gets its exceptionally high sync speed of 1/500
second.

Why doesn't the D40x do the same? Presumably because its sensor, which
obviously is different from the D40's, just cannot be switched on and off
that fast.

Neil

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Chris Malcolm

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Since: Nov 03, 2007
Posts: 447



(Msg. 33) Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 10:50 am
Post subject: Re: Higher-end compact or SLR for me? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Mr. Strat <rag.RemoveThis@nospam.techline.com> wrote:
> In article <ZWN3j.66295$RX.61412@newssvr11.news.prodigy.net>, Daniel
> Lenski <dlenski.RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:

>> > Go with the Nikon or the Canon. Jeez...why waste money on something
>> > less?
>>
>> Something less?

> Olympus...definitely something less than Nikon or Canon.

If you don't want as much as a Nikon or Canon it would be a waste of
money buying one. But the real problem is the silly idea that there is
such a thing as a linear dimension of quality on which one can rate
things as complicated as cameras for purposes as diverse as the
different requirements of different photographers.

--
Chris Malcolm cam.RemoveThis@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]
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Daniel Lenski

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Since: Nov 30, 2007
Posts: 39



(Msg. 34) Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 5:05 pm
Post subject: Re: Higher-end compact or SLR for me? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Fri, 30 Nov 2007 21:53:27 -0500, Neil Harrington wrote:
> Of the lenses you *would* buy, Nikon has as much of a selection as you'd
> ever be likely to need or want, and Nikon's 18-55mm kit lens is
> excellent, while reportedly Canon's corresponding 18-55 is rather poor
> -- even Canon fans have described it as "trash". Nikon's 55-200mm VR
> lens is the ideal companion to the 18-55. I don't think Canon makes a
> similar lens. They do have an inexpensive 55-200 too, but it's not
> image-stabilized as the Nikon 55-200 VR is and probably not as good
> optically. Those two, the 18-55 and 55-200 VR, are lenses you would
> actually *want* as opposed to the dozens of other lenses you'd probably
> never want.
>
> I have the D40 as well as the above mentioned Nikon lenses (along with
> many others) and I love it, so I'll have to admit to some bias. All the
> later Nikon lenses autofocus just fine on the D40, and every new lens
> Nikon introduces does also. The only Nikon AF lenses that don't
> autofocus on the D40 are those older ones that require the AF motor to
> be in the camera body. Those can be easily manually focused on the D40
> (there's an electronic aid for this), as can a lot of much older
> manual-focus lenses.
>

Thanks all for the good advice!

I tried the Canon XT/350D and the Nikon D40 today at the mall... both
seemed great. Though I slightly preferred the layout of the controls on
the Canon, while I preferred the grip, the viewfinder, and the larger LCD
of the Nikon. So now I guess I gotta find somewhere to try out the Olympus
E-510...

I know most of you aren't so hot on the Four-Thirds, but from the reviews
on dpreview.com, the image quality seems to be excellent with only slight
limitations in low-light conditions. Any reason not to trust them?

Dan
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David J Taylor

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Since: Jul 27, 2007
Posts: 876



(Msg. 35) Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 7:01 pm
Post subject: Re: Higher-end compact or SLR for me? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Daniel Lenski wrote:
[]
> I know most of you aren't so hot on the Four-Thirds, but from the
> reviews on dpreview.com, the image quality seems to be excellent with
> only slight limitations in low-light conditions. Any reason not to
> trust them?
>
> Dan

No, it's not a lack of trust in the reviews. More that for the same money
(more or less), and very little extra size and weight you can get the
benefits of a substantially better sensor and the ability to use a higher
ISO. For example, on the D40 you can use ISO 1600 and get very little
noise (grain), and the noise is easily removed in software (should you
wish) without doing a lot of damage to the image. I did like the
possibility of Live Preview on the Olympus, but they spoiled it by not
having a swivel LCD! You may find that there are fewer easily affordable
lenses for the Olympus as well.

Cheers,
David
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acl

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Since: Aug 17, 2006
Posts: 324



(Msg. 36) Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 8:29 pm
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On Dec 2, 7:02 am, Daniel Lenski <dlen....RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 01 Dec 2007 21:41:25 +0000, David J Taylor wrote:
> > No, it's not a lack of trust in the reviews. More that for the same
> > money (more or less), and very little extra size and weight you can get
> > the benefits of a substantially better sensor and the ability to use a
> > higher ISO. For example, on the D40 you can use ISO 1600 and get very
> > little noise (grain), and the noise is easily removed in software
> > (should you wish) without doing a lot of damage to the image. I did
> > like the possibility of Live Preview on the Olympus, but they spoiled it
> > by not having a swivel LCD! You may find that there are fewer easily
> > affordable lenses for the Olympus as well.
>
> Gotcha. Yeah, I have to keep remembering to think about the lenses even
> though I don't know exactly what I would want at this point.
>
> In any case, I tried the Canon 350D and the Nikon D40 today at the mall,
> and basically liked both a lot. Although I appreciated the larger LCD of
> the Nikon a lot. Though the Canon controls felt slightly easier in my
> hand. I'm planning to find somewhere to try the Olympus E-410/E-510 and
> Pentax K100D/K10D before I pick for sure!
>

Perhaps you should also take into consideration whether or not a
camera has stabilization in the body or not. If it does, all the
lenses that you mount on it will be able to use it. The pentax cameras
you mention do have this, the others not.

However, I think there have been stabilised 18-55 lenses (relatively
cheap) launched recently by canon and nikon, so that may not matter so
much if you plan to stick to one or two lenses. eg a d40 with the new
18-55 VR and the 55-200VR will give you a stabilised 18-200 range; if
the range and the lenses are enough for you, it doesn't really matter
if it's in the camera or lens. And if it's in the lens, it has the
advantage of also having an effect on the image you see through the
viewfinder.

On the other hand, if you plan to mount all sorts of odd lenses on the
camera (which I'd guess you don't), it's useful to have stabilisation
in the camera body itself.
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acl

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Since: Aug 17, 2006
Posts: 324



(Msg. 37) Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 9:11 pm
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On Dec 2, 8:05 am, Daniel Lenski <dlen....RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:

> I know that I actually have fairly shaky hands, which is something you
> learn quickly when you work in a nanotechnology lab Sad

I'm not too steady either; but I noticed this when I was 12, so now
I'm a theorist Smile
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acl

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Since: Aug 17, 2006
Posts: 324



(Msg. 38) Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 9:27 pm
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On Dec 2, 8:14 am, Daniel Lenski <dlen....DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 01 Dec 2007 21:11:27 -0800, acl wrote:
> > On Dec 2, 8:05 am, Daniel Lenski <dlen....DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> I know that I actually have fairly shaky hands, which is something you
> >> learn quickly when you work in a nanotechnology lab Sad
>
> > I'm not too steady either; but I noticed this when I was 12, so now I'm
> > a theorist Smile
>
> Perhaps I should say that I *noticed* it much earlier, it just didn't
> become much of a problem till I got to grad school.
>
> Which perhaps will also affect my camera choice as I will hopefully be in
> a higher income bracket in a year or two =)
>

Yeah well, don't stay in academia then: compare the salaries in
industry to those in a university, compare the job security... ouch.
But it's fun wondering in a completely unknown place.

Regarding the cameras, for general photograph, if you get a camera
without sensor stabilisation and get something like a 18-55 and a
55-200, you should really get the stabilised lenses. These "cheap"
lenses are quite slow (in terms of f/stop) so you'll have problems
handholding at the longer end without it. Of course a usable (for A4
prints) ISO 800-1600 does help, but 200mm in not too bright light will
be problematic.

Anyway, something like a d40 with a 18-55 and a 55-200VR is quite
versatile, if you can afford the lenses. You can always add lenses
later, but of course "later" isn't useable now!
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Scott W

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Since: Apr 16, 2007
Posts: 607



(Msg. 39) Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 12:36 am
Post subject: Re: Higher-end compact or SLR for me? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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acl wrote:

> Perhaps you should also take into consideration whether or not a
> camera has stabilization in the body or not. If it does, all the
> lenses that you mount on it will be able to use it. The pentax cameras
> you mention do have this, the others not.
>
> However, I think there have been stabilised 18-55 lenses (relatively
> cheap) launched recently by canon and nikon, so that may not matter so
> much if you plan to stick to one or two lenses. eg a d40 with the new
> 18-55 VR and the 55-200VR will give you a stabilised 18-200 range; if
> the range and the lenses are enough for you, it doesn't really matter
> if it's in the camera or lens. And if it's in the lens, it has the
> advantage of also having an effect on the image you see through the
> viewfinder.
>
> On the other hand, if you plan to mount all sorts of odd lenses on the
> camera (which I'd guess you don't), it's useful to have stabilisation
> in the camera body itself.
>

Canon announced a new 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 IS lens sometime ago, but it has
yet to show up at B&H. It looks pretty much like the kit lens but with
better optics and IS.

Scott
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Daniel Lenski

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Since: Nov 30, 2007
Posts: 39



(Msg. 40) Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 12:59 am
Post subject: Re: Higher-end compact or SLR for me? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Sat, 01 Dec 2007 21:41:25 +0000, David J Taylor wrote:
> No, it's not a lack of trust in the reviews. More that for the same
> money (more or less), and very little extra size and weight you can get
> the benefits of a substantially better sensor and the ability to use a
> higher ISO. For example, on the D40 you can use ISO 1600 and get very
> little noise (grain), and the noise is easily removed in software
> (should you wish) without doing a lot of damage to the image. I did
> like the possibility of Live Preview on the Olympus, but they spoiled it
> by not having a swivel LCD! You may find that there are fewer easily
> affordable lenses for the Olympus as well.
>

Gotcha. Yeah, I have to keep remembering to think about the lenses even
though I don't know exactly what I would want at this point.

In any case, I tried the Canon 350D and the Nikon D40 today at the mall,
and basically liked both a lot. Although I appreciated the larger LCD of
the Nikon a lot. Though the Canon controls felt slightly easier in my
hand. I'm planning to find somewhere to try the Olympus E-410/E-510 and
Pentax K100D/K10D before I pick for sure!

Dan
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Mr. Strat

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Since: Oct 17, 2007
Posts: 490



(Msg. 41) Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 12:59 am
Post subject: Re: Higher-end compact or SLR for me? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

In article <Z6q4j.4358$fl7.3406@newssvr22.news.prodigy.net>, Daniel
Lenski <dlenski.RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:

> In any case, I tried the Canon 350D and the Nikon D40 today at the mall,
> and basically liked both a lot. Although I appreciated the larger LCD of
> the Nikon a lot. Though the Canon controls felt slightly easier in my
> hand. I'm planning to find somewhere to try the Olympus E-410/E-510 and
> Pentax K100D/K10D before I pick for sure!

Flip a coin between the Canon and the Nikon. Why settle for second best?
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Daniel Lenski

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Since: Nov 30, 2007
Posts: 39



(Msg. 42) Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 12:59 am
Post subject: Re: Higher-end compact or SLR for me? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Sat, 01 Dec 2007 20:29:53 -0800, acl wrote:
> Perhaps you should also take into consideration whether or not a camera
> has stabilization in the body or not. If it does, all the lenses that
> you mount on it will be able to use it. The pentax cameras you mention
> do have this, the others not.

Gotcha. Looks like the Olympus E-510 has in-body stabilization too!

> However, I think there have been stabilised 18-55 lenses (relatively
> cheap) launched recently by canon and nikon, so that may not matter so
> much if you plan to stick to one or two lenses. eg a d40 with the new
> 18-55 VR and the 55-200VR will give you a stabilised 18-200 range; if
> the range and the lenses are enough for you, it doesn't really matter if
> it's in the camera or lens. And if it's in the lens, it has the
> advantage of also having an effect on the image you see through the
> viewfinder.
>
> On the other hand, if you plan to mount all sorts of odd lenses on the
> camera (which I'd guess you don't), it's useful to have stabilisation in
> the camera body itself.

Yeah, I imagine I won't start out with more than one or two lenses. But I
think I'd want some kind of stabilization for wildlife and sports shots.
I know that I actually have fairly shaky hands, which is something you
learn quickly when you work in a nanotechnology lab Sad

Dan
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Daniel Lenski

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Since: Nov 30, 2007
Posts: 39



(Msg. 43) Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 12:59 am
Post subject: Re: Higher-end compact or SLR for me? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Sat, 01 Dec 2007 21:11:27 -0800, acl wrote:

> On Dec 2, 8:05 am, Daniel Lenski <dlen... RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I know that I actually have fairly shaky hands, which is something you
>> learn quickly when you work in a nanotechnology lab Sad
>
> I'm not too steady either; but I noticed this when I was 12, so now I'm
> a theorist Smile

Perhaps I should say that I *noticed* it much earlier, it just didn't
become much of a problem till I got to grad school.

Which perhaps will also affect my camera choice as I will hopefully be in
a higher income bracket in a year or two =)

Dan
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nospam4

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Since: Jun 03, 2004
Posts: 917



(Msg. 44) Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 2:42 am
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In article <47528ab7$0$4984$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>, Scott W
<biphoto RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote:

> Canon announced a new 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 IS lens sometime ago, but it has
> yet to show up at B&H. It looks pretty much like the kit lens but with
> better optics and IS.

in stock:
<http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/519475-USA/Canon_2042B002_18_55mm
_f_3_5_5_6_EF_S_IS.html>
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Scott W

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Since: Apr 16, 2007
Posts: 607



(Msg. 45) Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 4:57 am
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nospam wrote:
> In article <47528ab7$0$4984$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>, Scott W
> <biphoto.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Canon announced a new 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 IS lens sometime ago, but it has
>> yet to show up at B&H. It looks pretty much like the kit lens but with
>> better optics and IS.
>
> in stock:
> <http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/519475-USA/Canon_2042B002_18_55mm
> _f_3_5_5_6_EF_S_IS.html>

Thanks, I had missed that some how.
This should be a fair improvement on the kit lens.

Scott
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