Flash problem D300

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 >> Stay informed about: Flash problem D300 

In article
<47a364e3$0$9753$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au>,
"Pete D" <no.RemoveThis@email.com> wrote:

> "Sosumi" <sosumi.RemoveThis@home.nl> wrote in message
> news:x-Odnelc9dnJxj7anZ2dnUVZ8vqdnZ2d@novis.pt...
> > Most picture I make are without flash, but now we have a six day crazy
> > carnaval here in my city of Torres Vedras, Portugal. So I want to make
> > some good pictures with flash. I have the D300, 18-135 lens, 50 mm 1.8, SB
> > 800 and 2 x SB 600.
> > When I set the camera to Aperture priority or Manual, the SB 800 to TTL or
> > TTL BL, it seems it constantly over exposes in the front and hardly or
> > nothing in the back, while the flash indicates a range from 1-17 meters.
> > I get this whenever I use matrix or centre weighed average. If I use spot
> > metering it's much better.
> > Does this mean you always have to use spot metering with flash to get the
> > right results? Seems a little odd to me, because they don't mention
> > anything about it in the manual of either the D300 or the SB 800.
> > I would think with all this expensive computerized equipment, it would
> > automatically give better results then this.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Sosumi
> Damn, what a bust. With this level of equipment it probably means you have
> to actually know what you are doing and adjust accordingly.
>
> Is there some problem with taking a test shot or two and make adjustments as
> needed?

That's a rather poor answer to the question. Why buy a TTL flash if your
going to shoot it on manual always?


I see Rita gave a good answer, mine would be you can drag the shutter
somewhat and bring up the background.

Good luck Sosumi!

--
Reality is a picture perfected and never looking back.
 >> Stay informed about: Flash problem D300 

"____" <internetphobic.TakeThisOut@deletedmail.com> wrote in message
news:internetphobic-DD649C.14274301022008@newsgroups.comcast.net...
> In article
> <47a364e3$0$9753$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au>,
> "Pete D" <no.TakeThisOut@email.com> wrote:
>
>> "Sosumi" <sosumi.TakeThisOut@home.nl> wrote in message
>> news:x-Odnelc9dnJxj7anZ2dnUVZ8vqdnZ2d@novis.pt...
>> > Most picture I make are without flash, but now we have a six day crazy
>> > carnaval here in my city of Torres Vedras, Portugal. So I want to make
>> > some good pictures with flash. I have the D300, 18-135 lens, 50 mm 1.8,
>> > SB
>> > 800 and 2 x SB 600.
>> > When I set the camera to Aperture priority or Manual, the SB 800 to TTL
>> > or
>> > TTL BL, it seems it constantly over exposes in the front and hardly or
>> > nothing in the back, while the flash indicates a range from 1-17
>> > meters.
>> > I get this whenever I use matrix or centre weighed average. If I use
>> > spot
>> > metering it's much better.
>> > Does this mean you always have to use spot metering with flash to get
>> > the
>> > right results? Seems a little odd to me, because they don't mention
>> > anything about it in the manual of either the D300 or the SB 800.
>> > I would think with all this expensive computerized equipment, it would
>> > automatically give better results then this.
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Sosumi
>> Damn, what a bust. With this level of equipment it probably means you
>> have
>> to actually know what you are doing and adjust accordingly.
>>
>> Is there some problem with taking a test shot or two and make adjustments
>> as
>> needed?
>
> That's a rather poor answer to the question. Why buy a TTL flash if your
> going to shoot it on manual always?
>
>
> I see Rita gave a good answer, mine would be you can drag the shutter
> somewhat and bring up the background.
>
> Good luck Sosumi!
>
> --
> Reality is a picture perfected and never looking back.

So you agree then that he needs to learn how to use it properly, mind you if
he is trying to do more than the system is capable of you do need to
understand the limits.
 >> Stay informed about: Flash problem D300 

In article
<47a38fd4$0$9774$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au>,
"Pete D" <no.RemoveThis@email.com> wrote:

> So you agree then that he needs to learn how to use it properly, mind you if
> he is trying to do more than the system is capable of you do need to
> understand the limits.

Yes I agree that buying complex equipment means one should read the
manual and do tests to get the hang of obtaining good results and
avoiding having one's limbs chopped off

--
Reality is a picture perfected and never looking back.
 >> Stay informed about: Flash problem D300 

Pete D <no DeleteThis @email.com> wrote:
> "____" <internetphobic DeleteThis @deletedmail.com> wrote in message
> news:internetphobic-DD649C.14274301022008@newsgroups.comcast.net...
>> In article
>> <47a364e3$0$9753$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au>,
>> "Pete D" <no DeleteThis @email.com> wrote:
>>> "Sosumi" <sosumi DeleteThis @home.nl> wrote in message
>>> news:x-Odnelc9dnJxj7anZ2dnUVZ8vqdnZ2d@novis.pt...

>>> > Most picture I make are without flash, but now we have a six day crazy
>>> > carnaval here in my city of Torres Vedras, Portugal. So I want to make
>>> > some good pictures with flash. I have the D300, 18-135 lens, 50 mm 1.8,
>>> > SB
>>> > 800 and 2 x SB 600.
>>> > When I set the camera to Aperture priority or Manual, the SB 800 to TTL
>>> > or
>>> > TTL BL, it seems it constantly over exposes in the front and hardly or
>>> > nothing in the back, while the flash indicates a range from 1-17
>>> > meters.
>>> > I get this whenever I use matrix or centre weighed average. If I use
>>> > spot
>>> > metering it's much better.
>>> > Does this mean you always have to use spot metering with flash to get
>>> > the
>>> > right results? Seems a little odd to me, because they don't mention
>>> > anything about it in the manual of either the D300 or the SB 800.
>>> > I would think with all this expensive computerized equipment, it would
>>> > automatically give better results then this.

>>> Damn, what a bust. With this level of equipment it probably means you
>>> have
>>> to actually know what you are doing and adjust accordingly.
>>>
>>> Is there some problem with taking a test shot or two and make adjustments
>>> as
>>> needed?

>> That's a rather poor answer to the question. Why buy a TTL flash if your
>> going to shoot it on manual always?

> So you agree then that he needs to learn how to use it properly, mind you if
> he is trying to do more than the system is capable of you do need to
> understand the limits.

The trpuble with using very clever devices is that sometimes when you
want to do something simple you have to learn enough about them to
stop them being inappropriately clever.

This is not helped by the fact that the marketing depts, with their
eyes on maximising sales of their clever devices to stupid people,
supply manuals with all the frightening technical details removed.

--
Chris Malcolm cam DeleteThis @infirmatics.ed.ac.uk DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]
 >> Stay informed about: Flash problem D300 

On Feb 1, 12:48 pm, "Sosumi" <sos....TakeThisOut@home.nl> wrote:
> Most picture I make are without flash, but now we have a six day crazy
> carnaval here in my city of Torres Vedras, Portugal. So I want to make some
> good pictures with flash. I have the D300, 18-135 lens, 50 mm 1.8, SB 800
> and 2 x SB 600.
> When I set the camera to Aperture priority or Manual, the SB 800 to TTL or
> TTL BL, it seems it constantly over exposes in the front and hardly or
> nothing in the back, while the flash indicates a range from 1-17 meters.
> I get this whenever I use matrix or centre weighed average. If I use spot
> metering it's much better.
> Does this mean you always have to use spot metering with flash to get the
> right results? Seems a little odd to me, because they don't mention anything
> about it in the manual of either the D300 or the SB 800.
> I would think with all this expensive computerized equipment, it would
> automatically give better results then this.
>

The inverse square rule dictates that the further your light travels,
the further it spreads, therefore by necessity, objects in the
foreground will receive more illumination than those in the
background. There is nothing you can do about this if you are relying
solely on your flash for light. As others have suggested, you could
set your shutter to a lower/longer setting in an effort to capture
more of the ambient light. Doing this with a higher iso may prove
useful, unless the ambient light is so low as to be unattainable
without introducing hand shake/subject motion to the images. This can
be interesting, though, as the flash will capture a sharp image, and
then the motion of your hand and the subject will also be captured.

Experiment, have fun--don't forget to try rear curtain sync as well as
slow sync.

--
www.mattclara.com
 >> Stay informed about: Flash problem D300 

Sosumi <sosumi.DeleteThis@home.nl> wrote:

> Most picture I make are without flash, but now we have a six day crazy
> carnaval here in my city of Torres Vedras, Portugal. So I want to make some
> good pictures with flash. I have the D300, 18-135 lens, 50 mm 1.8, SB 800
> and 2 x SB 600.

> When I set the camera to Aperture priority or Manual, the SB 800 to TTL or
> TTL BL, it seems it constantly over exposes in the front and hardly or
> nothing in the back, while the flash indicates a range from 1-17 meters.

If you'd thought Nikon was able to produce a flash ignoring
physical laws, you now know the truth: even Nikon cooks with water.

> Does this mean you always have to use spot metering with flash to get the
> right results?

A flat, uniform wall, perpendicular to the lens and flash axis,
at enough distance from the flash head and long enough a lens
will get the right result if you use any usable metering at all.

Since a *single* counter will disprove an "always" claim ...
the answer must be a resounding "No (not always)".

> Seems a little odd to me, because they don't mention anything
> about it in the manual of either the D300 or the SB 800.

Flash photography is an art unto itself.

That means you need a couple of years experience and/or tons of
native talent -- with "or" being unlikely to be enough.

If you were a Canon shooter, I'd point you to
http://photonotes.org/articles/eos-flash/
.. Unfortunately, I am not aware of any web site showing the
intricacies of Nikon flash usage.

> I would think with all this expensive computerized equipment, it would
> automatically give better results then this.

Unless you get computerized equipment that also does know the
intent of the photo you are about to take, it can but guess,
and hope for the best.


What you want is to learn to tell the camera what part of the
image you want exposed in which way, how to set up your 2 SB600 to
light up the further away parts (via wireless TTL --- lightweight
and not necessarily vibration free, but *high* tripods can be a
real help), indirect flash, learning the physics of light even
Nikon cannot ignore completely, the interplay of external light
and flash with aperture, ISO setting and exposure, and so on and
so on and so on, and you'll be well on the way for your first
flashy experiences that don't look completely fake and ugly.

Or, for the ... easier way:
- bounce your flash on a ceiling or even a wall, if you can
at all.
- use your 50mm, and use it open
- use longer exposure times
- use flash to add, not to replace normal light.

-Wolfgang
 >> Stay informed about: Flash problem D300 

In article <x-Odnelc9dnJxj7anZ2dnUVZ8vqdnZ2d RemoveThis @novis.pt>, Sosumi
<sosumi RemoveThis @home.nl> wrote:

> Most picture I make are without flash, but now we have a six day crazy
> carnaval here in my city of Torres Vedras, Portugal. So I want to make some
> good pictures with flash. I have the D300, 18-135 lens, 50 mm 1.8, SB 800
> and 2 x SB 600.
> When I set the camera to Aperture priority or Manual, the SB 800 to TTL or
> TTL BL, it seems it constantly over exposes in the front and hardly or
> nothing in the back, while the flash indicates a range from 1-17 meters.
> I get this whenever I use matrix or centre weighed average. If I use spot
> metering it's much better.
> Does this mean you always have to use spot metering with flash to get the
> right results? Seems a little odd to me, because they don't mention anything
> about it in the manual of either the D300 or the SB 800.
> I would think with all this expensive computerized equipment, it would
> automatically give better results then this.

Sosumi, I am using similar equipment. Here's what I do...

1. Start with P mode, and set the SB 800 for TTL. I don't know what
happens in A or M. Notice what happens with the shutter speed.

2. Flash only works well (gives similar illumination) to objects that
are similar distance. Anything further back will not be lit by the
flash.

3. Vary the exposure comp (+/-) and the flash exposure comp (same
symbol but with the lightning bolt).

4. For fill flash in daylight, set the 800 to TTL BL.

5. For flash indoors or at night, try Slow Sync and Rear Curtain.
Notice what happens to the shutter speed (it will go to perhaps 1/8 or
something slow). Indoors you'll get the room lighting for the
background and a combination of flash and blurred room lighting for the
subject. Unpredictable results if people move, pictures of dancing are
really wild. But, I get some keepers this way.

Write if more problems... Or post a sample exposure.

-=- Rick

--
Richard Karash <Richard RemoveThis @Karash.com>
Richard "at" Karash "dot" com
 >> Stay informed about: Flash problem D300 

I used to do night shooting with film (F3 and vivitar 283)

I always shot manual. At night I'd look at the calculated exposure on
the flash and add 2 stops. Given that your effective distance with a
flash a night goes way down (but with digital you could jack up your
sensitivity)

Guide numbers and flash scale were created for use in a well lighted
about 10x10 with an 8 foot ceiling all painted white. Anything less
well lighted start adding light. Any larger room start adding light.

I have a couple flash meters that work great.

At night any subjects at a distance equal to the camera to subject
distance are not visible (I used to also do lots of night macro shooting).

Why not shoot with available light? During christmas I took some really
fun night shots with my D200 while my wife drove on our way to pick up a
kid that was down town for a concert. If you wanted to still use the
flash, I'd use it as a fill for the foreground. That way you would
still see the background and the fill would correct the color of the
available light.


Sosumi wrote:
> Most picture I make are without flash, but now we have a six day crazy
> carnaval here in my city of Torres Vedras, Portugal. So I want to make some
> good pictures with flash. I have the D300, 18-135 lens, 50 mm 1.8, SB 800
> and 2 x SB 600.
> When I set the camera to Aperture priority or Manual, the SB 800 to TTL or
> TTL BL, it seems it constantly over exposes in the front and hardly or
> nothing in the back, while the flash indicates a range from 1-17 meters.
> I get this whenever I use matrix or centre weighed average. If I use spot
> metering it's much better.
> Does this mean you always have to use spot metering with flash to get the
> right results? Seems a little odd to me, because they don't mention anything
> about it in the manual of either the D300 or the SB 800.
> I would think with all this expensive computerized equipment, it would
> automatically give better results then this.
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: Flash problem D300 

Richard Karash <Richard.TakeThisOut@karash.com> wrote:
> In article <x-Odnelc9dnJxj7anZ2dnUVZ8vqdnZ2d.TakeThisOut@novis.pt>, Sosumi
> <sosumi.TakeThisOut@home.nl> wrote:

>> Most picture I make are without flash, but now we have a six day crazy
>> carnaval here in my city of Torres Vedras, Portugal. So I want to make some
>> good pictures with flash. I have the D300, 18-135 lens, 50 mm 1.8, SB 800
>> and 2 x SB 600.
>> When I set the camera to Aperture priority or Manual, the SB 800 to TTL or
>> TTL BL, it seems it constantly over exposes in the front and hardly or
>> nothing in the back, while the flash indicates a range from 1-17 meters.
>> I get this whenever I use matrix or centre weighed average. If I use spot
>> metering it's much better.
>> Does this mean you always have to use spot metering with flash to get the
>> right results? Seems a little odd to me, because they don't mention anything
>> about it in the manual of either the D300 or the SB 800.
>> I would think with all this expensive computerized equipment, it would
>> automatically give better results then this.

> Sosumi, I am using similar equipment. Here's what I do...

> 1. Start with P mode, and set the SB 800 for TTL. I don't know what
> happens in A or M. Notice what happens with the shutter speed.

> 2. Flash only works well (gives similar illumination) to objects that
> are similar distance. Anything further back will not be lit by the
> flash.

> 3. Vary the exposure comp (+/-) and the flash exposure comp (same
> symbol but with the lightning bolt).

> 4. For fill flash in daylight, set the 800 to TTL BL.

> 5. For flash indoors or at night, try Slow Sync and Rear Curtain.
> Notice what happens to the shutter speed (it will go to perhaps 1/8 or
> something slow). Indoors you'll get the room lighting for the
> background and a combination of flash and blurred room lighting for the
> subject. Unpredictable results if people move, pictures of dancing are
> really wild. But, I get some keepers this way.

> Write if more problems... Or post a sample exposure.

The problems arise because of the inverse square law by which
radiation intensity (illumination) falls off as the square of
distance. So something 3 metres away will get less than half the light
of something 2 metres away. We don't have this problem with the sun
because it's millions of miles away. So a way of lessening this
problem with flash is to move it further away. This is most easily
done if it isn't attached to the camera, e.g. if you had an assistant
standing a few feet behind you holding your flash up high and pointing
a bit down. That would also result in much better looking photographs
quite apart from better exposure.

If you're stuck with on-camera flash, then what you've observed is
that if you use a flash mode which decides the flash power based on
camera focus distance, that getting the distance past the nearest
subjects helps a bit, because instead of having correctly lit
foreground and the rest too dark, you have the better compromise of
overexposed foreground, correct mid, and dark background. Rather like
choosing your focus point as an average between the nearest and the
farthest detail you want.

They often omit details like this from camera and flash manuals
because it helps mass sales of complicated devices to pretend that
they're simpler than they really are

--
Chris Malcolm cam.TakeThisOut@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]
 >> Stay informed about: Flash problem D300 

On 2008-02-01 09:48:02 -0800, "Sosumi" <sosumi DeleteThis @home.nl> said:

> Most picture I make are without flash, but now we have a six day crazy
> carnaval here in my city of Torres Vedras, Portugal. So I want to make some
> good pictures with flash. I have the D300, 18-135 lens, 50 mm 1.8, SB 800
> and 2 x SB 600.
> When I set the camera to Aperture priority or Manual, the SB 800 to TTL or
> TTL BL, it seems it constantly over exposes in the front and hardly or
> nothing in the back, while the flash indicates a range from 1-17 meters.
> I get this whenever I use matrix or centre weighed average. If I use spot
> metering it's much better.
> Does this mean you always have to use spot metering with flash to get the
> right results? Seems a little odd to me, because they don't mention anything
> about it in the manual of either the D300 or the SB 800.
> I would think with all this expensive computerized equipment, it would
> automatically give better results then this.

I use slow sync and rear curtain in situations like that. You need a
tripod or monopod, though. You can also use rear curtain and shutter
priority or manual mode if you want the background less blurred or you
want more control over how bright the background is.

--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor
 >> Stay informed about: Flash problem D300 

Chris Malcolm <cam RemoveThis @holyrood.ed.ac.uk> wrote:

> The problems arise because of the inverse square law by which
> radiation intensity (illumination) falls off as the square of
> distance.

.... from the flash to the subject, but *not* from the subject to
the lens.

> So something 3 metres away will get less than half the light
> of something 2 metres away.

~44%, a bit over a stop difference overall.
± ½ stop ... I understand even slide film can tolerate that much.

> We don't have this problem with the sun because it's millions of miles
> away. So a way of lessening this problem with flash is to move it
> further away.

The real solution is going towards _equalizing_ the distance
to the flash(es). Moving farther away is just one way of
doing this.

> This is most easily done if it isn't attached to the camera, e.g. if
> you had an assistant standing a few feet behind you holding your flash
> up high and pointing a bit down. That would also result in much better
> looking photographs quite apart from better exposure.

Except that then the flash is farther away and thus even more a
point source of light ... whch gives harsh light.

-Wolfgang
 >> Stay informed about: Flash problem D300 

In article <tnhb95-vc.ln1.DeleteThis@ID-52418.user.berlin.de>, ozcvgtt02
@sneakemail.com says...
-Chris Malcolm <cam.DeleteThis@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
-
-> The problems arise because of the inverse square law by which
-> radiation intensity (illumination) falls off as the square of
-> distance.
-
-... from the flash to the subject, but *not* from the subject to
-the lens.
-
-> So something 3 metres away will get less than half the light
-> of something 2 metres away.
-
-~44%, a bit over a stop difference overall.
-± ½ stop ... I understand even slide film can tolerate that much.

yes. But, if you are being critical,
4x5 ektachrome, +- 1/3 stop is excessive,
FROM one part of the chrome to another.


-The real solution is going towards _equalizing_ the distance
-to the flash(es). Moving farther away is just one way of
-doing this.
-
-> This is most easily done if it isn't attached to the camera, e.g. if
-> you had an assistant standing a few feet behind you holding your flash
-> up high and pointing a bit down. That would also result in much better
-> looking photographs quite apart from better exposure.
-
-Except that then the flash is farther away and thus even more a
-point source of light ... whch gives harsh light.

no one" by three" flashhead gives anything but harsh light,
unless it is reflected off something much larger.

Also, after equal distances, increasing the distance
helps make them closer to equal
when you compare front of scene to back of scene.

the distance ratio is better.

-
--Wolfgang
-

--
Bob Crownfield
crownfield.DeleteThis@verizon.net
 >> Stay informed about: Flash problem D300