Energizer Low Self Discharge NiMH

DirtRoadie wrote:
> I have become a big fan of low self discharge NiMH batteries (aka
> "precharged", "hybrid")
> But I had not seen any mention of these from Energizer despite their
> wide availbility from virtually all other vendors. So I inquired
> directly of Energizer and received the following response:
>
> "At this time, Energizer does not have plans to offer low discharge
> batteries."
>
> This seems to make little sense. Anyone have any knowledge or guess
> why this would be?
>
> DR
I believe the technology is licensed from Sanyo, the original developer.
So maybe it's a licensing thing.
Dave Cohen
 >> Stay informed about: Energizer Low Self Discharge NiMH 

DirtRoadie wrote:
> On Feb 7, 5:45 pm, Dave Cohen <u... DeleteThis @example.net> wrote:
>
>> I believe the technology is licensed from Sanyo, the original developer.
>> So maybe it's a licensing thing.
>
> Licensing would hardly seem to be an issue since it seems as if
> EVERYBODY but Energizer has the LSD batteries (and they apparently
> only come from a few sources anyhow.
>
> See:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_self-discharge_NiMH_battery#Brand_names
>
> I was under the impression that Sanyo was the OEM for many of
> Energizer's other NiMH batteries.
> It seems strange that a supplier as large as Energizer would just
> ignore the market.
>
> DR

I suspect that if they continue to do so, they will simply lose out on
that part of the market segment, which is to say NiMH formulation.
Probably not fatal to the company, but certainly not a wise approach.
 >> Stay informed about: Energizer Low Self Discharge NiMH 

On Feb 8, 10:11 am, John Navas <spamfilt... DeleteThis @navasgroup.com> wrote:
> My guess(tm) is that they are probably more capable of properly managing
> their battery business than anyone here.    There may well be other
> issues we don't fully appreciate, if at all.

That's proably true. I was merely trying to grasp what those issues
might be.
DR
 >> Stay informed about: Energizer Low Self Discharge NiMH 

On Fri, 08 Feb 2008 04:07:48 -0600, Ron Hunter <rphunter RemoveThis @charter.net>
wrote in <DdednVbLVLhptDHanZ2dnUVZ_sLinZ2d RemoveThis @giganews.com>:

>DirtRoadie wrote:
>> On Feb 7, 5:45 pm, Dave Cohen <u... RemoveThis @example.net> wrote:
>>
>>> I believe the technology is licensed from Sanyo, the original developer.
>>> So maybe it's a licensing thing.
>>
>> Licensing would hardly seem to be an issue since it seems as if
>> EVERYBODY but Energizer has the LSD batteries (and they apparently
>> only come from a few sources anyhow.
>>
>> See:
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_self-discharge_NiMH_battery#Brand_names
>>
>> I was under the impression that Sanyo was the OEM for many of
>> Energizer's other NiMH batteries.
>> It seems strange that a supplier as large as Energizer would just
>> ignore the market.

>I suspect that if they continue to do so, they will simply lose out on
>that part of the market segment, which is to say NiMH formulation.
>Probably not fatal to the company, but certainly not a wise approach.

My guess(tm) is that they are probably more capable of properly managing
their battery business than anyone here. There may well be other
issues we don't fully appreciate, if at all.

--
Best regards,
John Navas
Panasonic DMC-FZ8 (and several others)
 >> Stay informed about: Energizer Low Self Discharge NiMH 

John Navas wrote:
> On Fri, 08 Feb 2008 04:07:48 -0600, Ron Hunter <rphunter DeleteThis @charter.net>
> wrote in <DdednVbLVLhptDHanZ2dnUVZ_sLinZ2d DeleteThis @giganews.com>:
>
>> DirtRoadie wrote:
>>> On Feb 7, 5:45 pm, Dave Cohen <u... DeleteThis @example.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I believe the technology is licensed from Sanyo, the original developer.
>>>> So maybe it's a licensing thing.
>>> Licensing would hardly seem to be an issue since it seems as if
>>> EVERYBODY but Energizer has the LSD batteries (and they apparently
>>> only come from a few sources anyhow.
>>>
>>> See:
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_self-discharge_NiMH_battery#Brand_names
>>>
>>> I was under the impression that Sanyo was the OEM for many of
>>> Energizer's other NiMH batteries.
>>> It seems strange that a supplier as large as Energizer would just
>>> ignore the market.
>
>> I suspect that if they continue to do so, they will simply lose out on
>> that part of the market segment, which is to say NiMH formulation.
>> Probably not fatal to the company, but certainly not a wise approach.
>
> My guess(tm) is that they are probably more capable of properly managing
> their battery business than anyone here. There may well be other
> issues we don't fully appreciate, if at all.
>

Well, it's their business. Maybe they have a superior technology in the
wings, and don't want to waste time and money on something not as good.
As long as there are alternatives, and the company isn't hurt by a
small hole in their product line, it isn't a problem. If I were a
large stockholder, I might be curious about it, though.
 >> Stay informed about: Energizer Low Self Discharge NiMH 

DirtRoadie wrote:
> I have become a big fan of low self discharge NiMH batteries (aka
> "precharged", "hybrid")
> But I had not seen any mention of these from Energizer despite their
> wide availbility from virtually all other vendors. So I inquired
> directly of Energizer and received the following response:
>
> "At this time, Energizer does not have plans to offer low discharge
> batteries."
>
> This seems to make little sense. Anyone have any knowledge or guess
> why this would be?
Well the latest shipment (in Australia) of Energizer NiMH's
that I received carry a sticker on the front of the package
saying that they now hold their charge longer. Doesn't look
to be quite as long as the Eneloops, but they are 2500mAH vs
the Eneloops at 2000mAH. Looks like Energizer have altered
the compromise between capacity and longevity compared to
what Sanyo have done.

>
> DR
 >> Stay informed about: Energizer Low Self Discharge NiMH 

>> I have become a big fan of low self discharge NiMH batteries (aka
>> "precharged", "hybrid") But I had not seen any mention of these from
>> Energizer <snip>

A google search turned up nothing you can buy from Energizer.

> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Energizer+Hybrid+Batteries

I've been using the Eneloop batteries for about a year. One application
is the flashlight that we use for an evening walk. We take the dog out
for about 30 minutes a night. There are four AA batteries in the
flashlight. Eneloop batteries with 2000mAH outlast our non-hybrid
rechargables (all brands) which boast 2500mAH. A full charge seems to
power the light for about a week to ten days. It appears to me that
unless you are going to discharge the non-hybrid batteries very soon
after charging, you are unlikely to benefit from the extra 500mAH. The
extra juice just gets lost in the self-discharge process.

If you do the math, rechargables of any sort make all the sense in the
world. Their initial cost is repaid many times over in lower operating
costs and less garbage in the landfill. I would encourage any
photographer who uses AA batteries to go immediately to rechargables.
Keep a backup set of lithiums if you're going somewhere that doesn't
have electricity, but for everyday use, go with the rechargables. If
your experience is anything like mine, you'll want the hybrids.

Here are some of the infrequently-used places where the Eneloop hybrid
(or any other brand hybrid) seem to makes sense. The flashlight in the
car. The P&S camera that my son uses once a week or so. My extra flash
unit that gets used only sproadically. The radio triggers. The smoke
detector. Anything else that might sit on the shelf for a couple of
weeks before use, or might need a low power drain for a long time,
because a week or two is time enough for the non-hybrids to bleed a lot
of their power.

I still own and use a few of the non-hybrids batteries - they were prior
inventory - and as they die I am replacing all of them with Eneloops.

Environmentally and economically yours, ~Ray
 >> Stay informed about: Energizer Low Self Discharge NiMH 

Doug Jewell <ask.RemoveThis@and.maybe.ill.tell.you> wrote in news:47aed1d0$0$3350
$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au:

> DirtRoadie wrote:
>> I have become a big fan of low self discharge NiMH batteries (aka
>> "precharged", "hybrid")
>> But I had not seen any mention of these from Energizer despite their
>> wide availbility from virtually all other vendors. So I inquired
>> directly of Energizer and received the following response:
>>
>> "At this time, Energizer does not have plans to offer low discharge
>> batteries."
>>
>> This seems to make little sense. Anyone have any knowledge or guess
>> why this would be?
> Well the latest shipment (in Australia) of Energizer NiMH's
> that I received carry a sticker on the front of the package
> saying that they now hold their charge longer. Doesn't look
> to be quite as long as the Eneloops, but they are 2500mAH vs
> the Eneloops at 2000mAH. Looks like Energizer have altered
> the compromise between capacity and longevity compared to
> what Sanyo have done.

Ive checked several brands of "true" eneloops tech batteries and they all
range between 2000 & 2100mAh. I am aware of so called "low discharge"
NIMH's with higher capacities but that seems to be a sort of twilight
zone "hybrid," between the old type NiMH's and "true" eneloop
FWIW
 >> Stay informed about: Energizer Low Self Discharge NiMH 

Ray Paseur wrote:
>>> I have become a big fan of low self discharge NiMH batteries (aka
>>> "precharged", "hybrid") But I had not seen any mention of these from
>>> Energizer <snip>
>
> A google search turned up nothing you can buy from Energizer.
>
>> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Energizer+Hybrid+Batteries
>
> I've been using the Eneloop batteries for about a year. One application
> is the flashlight that we use for an evening walk. We take the dog out
> for about 30 minutes a night. There are four AA batteries in the
> flashlight. Eneloop batteries with 2000mAH outlast our non-hybrid
> rechargables (all brands) which boast 2500mAH. A full charge seems to
> power the light for about a week to ten days. It appears to me that
> unless you are going to discharge the non-hybrid batteries very soon
> after charging, you are unlikely to benefit from the extra 500mAH. The
> extra juice just gets lost in the self-discharge process.
>
> If you do the math, rechargables of any sort make all the sense in the
> world. Their initial cost is repaid many times over in lower operating
> costs and less garbage in the landfill. I would encourage any
> photographer who uses AA batteries to go immediately to rechargables.
> Keep a backup set of lithiums if you're going somewhere that doesn't
> have electricity, but for everyday use, go with the rechargables. If
> your experience is anything like mine, you'll want the hybrids.
>
> Here are some of the infrequently-used places where the Eneloop hybrid
> (or any other brand hybrid) seem to makes sense. The flashlight in the
> car. The P&S camera that my son uses once a week or so. My extra flash
> unit that gets used only sproadically. The radio triggers. The smoke
> detector. Anything else that might sit on the shelf for a couple of
> weeks before use, or might need a low power drain for a long time,
> because a week or two is time enough for the non-hybrids to bleed a lot
> of their power.
>
> I still own and use a few of the non-hybrids batteries - they were prior
> inventory - and as they die I am replacing all of them with Eneloops.
>
> Environmentally and economically yours, ~Ray
>
I did find an application the Eneloop batteries didn't perform well in.
I have some 'stick n' click' lights. Single white LED, with 3 AAA
cells. I have one that gets used about 2-3 hours a day, and AAA
alkalines last 3 months, or longer in that light. A freshly charged set
of Eneloops lasted less than a month. Will have to find another use for
them.
Yes, economically, they would be better, over the course of a year, or
so, but the batteries are a pain to change, so that counts more for me
than the few cents (less than $.75) that three AAA cells cost, if you
add the nuisance factor in.
I am assuming that the LED expects a higher voltage than the NiMH
battery delivers.
 >> Stay informed about: Energizer Low Self Discharge NiMH 

Ray Paseur wrote:
>>> I have become a big fan of low self discharge NiMH batteries (aka
>>> "precharged", "hybrid") But I had not seen any mention of these from
>>> Energizer <snip>
>
> A google search turned up nothing you can buy from Energizer.
A quick look on their Australian website (which seems to
seemlessly link to a foreign site - no .au in the following
links) revealed the following:
http://www.energizer.com/products/hightech-batteries/rechargeables/Pag...recharg
This site says they hold charge for 6 months (compared to
eneloop at 12 months).
Also:
http://www.energizer.com/products/hightech-batteries/rechargeables/faq...ges/faq
Most rechargeable batteries self-discharge at 1.5% per day,
the Energizer rechargeables self discharge at 0.5% per day.
So while Eneloop might still be better for devices with very
low usage, I would think Energizer would be better for a
digital camera that will be used reasonably frequently - the
energizer has lower self discharge than most, but has 25%
more capacity than eneloop.
>
>> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Energizer+Hybrid+Batteries
>
> I've been using the Eneloop batteries for about a year. One application
> is the flashlight that we use for an evening walk. We take the dog out
> for about 30 minutes a night. There are four AA batteries in the
> flashlight. Eneloop batteries with 2000mAH outlast our non-hybrid
> rechargables (all brands) which boast 2500mAH. A full charge seems to
> power the light for about a week to ten days. It appears to me that
> unless you are going to discharge the non-hybrid batteries very soon
> after charging, you are unlikely to benefit from the extra 500mAH. The
> extra juice just gets lost in the self-discharge process.
>
> If you do the math, rechargables of any sort make all the sense in the
> world. Their initial cost is repaid many times over in lower operating
> costs and less garbage in the landfill. I would encourage any
> photographer who uses AA batteries to go immediately to rechargables.
> Keep a backup set of lithiums if you're going somewhere that doesn't
> have electricity, but for everyday use, go with the rechargables. If
> your experience is anything like mine, you'll want the hybrids.
>
> Here are some of the infrequently-used places where the Eneloop hybrid
> (or any other brand hybrid) seem to makes sense. The flashlight in the
> car. The P&S camera that my son uses once a week or so. My extra flash
> unit that gets used only sproadically. The radio triggers. The smoke
> detector. Anything else that might sit on the shelf for a couple of
> weeks before use, or might need a low power drain for a long time,
> because a week or two is time enough for the non-hybrids to bleed a lot
> of their power.
>
> I still own and use a few of the non-hybrids batteries - they were prior
> inventory - and as they die I am replacing all of them with Eneloops.
>
> Environmentally and economically yours, ~Ray
>
 >> Stay informed about: Energizer Low Self Discharge NiMH 

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 07:46:37 +1000, Doug Jewell
<ask.TakeThisOut@and.maybe.ill.tell.you> wrote in
<47af70c7$0$3381$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au>:

>http://www.energizer.com/products/hightech-batteries/rechargeables/faq/Pages/faq6.aspx
>Most rechargeable batteries self-discharge at 1.5% per day,
>the Energizer rechargeables self discharge at 0.5% per day.

Be careful of marketing claims. The self-discharge of standard NiMH
cells is about 1% per day, so the difference is much less than claimed.
See the room temperature curve in Retained Capacity in Energizer's own
NiMH Application Manual:
<http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/nickelmetalhydride_appman.pdf>

--
Best regards,
John Navas
Panasonic DMC-FZ8 (and several others)
 >> Stay informed about: Energizer Low Self Discharge NiMH 

Doug Jewell wrote:
> Ray Paseur wrote:
>>>> I have become a big fan of low self discharge NiMH batteries (aka
>>>> "precharged", "hybrid") But I had not seen any mention of these
>>>> from Energizer <snip>
>>
>> A google search turned up nothing you can buy from Energizer.
> A quick look on their Australian website (which seems to seemlessly link
> to a foreign site - no .au in the following links) revealed the following:
> http://www.energizer.com/products/hightech-batteries/rechargeables/Pag...recharg
>
> This site says they hold charge for 6 months (compared to eneloop at 12
> months).
> Also:
> http://www.energizer.com/products/hightech-batteries/rechargeables/faq...ges/faq
>
> Most rechargeable batteries self-discharge at 1.5% per day, the
> Energizer rechargeables self discharge at 0.5% per day.
> So while Eneloop might still be better for devices with very low usage,
> I would think Energizer would be better for a digital camera that will
> be used reasonably frequently - the energizer has lower self discharge
> than most, but has 25% more capacity than eneloop.
>>
>>> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Energizer+Hybrid+Batteries
>>
>> I've been using the Eneloop batteries for about a year. One
>> application is the flashlight that we use for an evening walk. We
>> take the dog out for about 30 minutes a night. There are four AA
>> batteries in the flashlight. Eneloop batteries with 2000mAH outlast
>> our non-hybrid rechargables (all brands) which boast 2500mAH. A full
>> charge seems to power the light for about a week to ten days. It
>> appears to me that unless you are going to discharge the non-hybrid
>> batteries very soon after charging, you are unlikely to benefit from
>> the extra 500mAH. The extra juice just gets lost in the
>> self-discharge process.
>>
>> If you do the math, rechargables of any sort make all the sense in the
>> world. Their initial cost is repaid many times over in lower
>> operating costs and less garbage in the landfill. I would encourage
>> any photographer who uses AA batteries to go immediately to
>> rechargables. Keep a backup set of lithiums if you're going somewhere
>> that doesn't have electricity, but for everyday use, go with the
>> rechargables. If your experience is anything like mine, you'll want
>> the hybrids.
>>
>> Here are some of the infrequently-used places where the Eneloop hybrid
>> (or any other brand hybrid) seem to makes sense. The flashlight in
>> the car. The P&S camera that my son uses once a week or so. My extra
>> flash unit that gets used only sproadically. The radio triggers. The
>> smoke detector. Anything else that might sit on the shelf for a
>> couple of weeks before use, or might need a low power drain for a long
>> time, because a week or two is time enough for the non-hybrids to
>> bleed a lot of their power.
>>
>> I still own and use a few of the non-hybrids batteries - they were
>> prior inventory - and as they die I am replacing all of them with
>> Eneloops.
>> Environmentally and economically yours, ~Ray
>>
I suppose if one used a full charge from his batteries in about a month,
the Energizers would be better, but what is the cost difference, if any?
 >> Stay informed about: Energizer Low Self Discharge NiMH 

John Navas wrote:
> On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 07:46:37 +1000, Doug Jewell
> <ask RemoveThis @and.maybe.ill.tell.you> wrote in
> <47af70c7$0$3381$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au>:
>
>> http://www.energizer.com/products/hightech-batteries/rechargeables/faq...ges/faq
>> Most rechargeable batteries self-discharge at 1.5% per day,
>> the Energizer rechargeables self discharge at 0.5% per day.
>
> Be careful of marketing claims. The self-discharge of standard NiMH
> cells is about 1% per day, so the difference is much less than claimed.
> See the room temperature curve in Retained Capacity in Energizer's own
> NiMH Application Manual:
> <http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/nickelmetalhydride_appman.pdf>
>
That can (and usually does) vary from brand to brand, and even batch to
batch. And who can predict what 'room temperature' is for any given
user? I suspect that storage in a car in Phoenix, and one in Fairbanks
might yield different results. Grin.
 >> Stay informed about: Energizer Low Self Discharge NiMH