Dumb question re: processing 4x5

"Robert Chin" <bchin_us DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ffd9re018fc@news5.newsguy.com...
> I'm sorry if this has been answered before. This is a legit question so
> please bear with me.
>
> My set up is not optimum. I do not have a dedicated darkroom (for now at
> least). I've done many many rolls of film over the years. I throw
> everyting into a changing bag, load up a reel and no problem.
>
> I'm getting ready to process 4x5 sheet film for the first time. It
> requires a bit more space to handle the sheet film than rolls. Since I do
> not have a dedicated darkroom, I can't fill the tanks with the necessary
> chemicals, leave them on a tabletop, and just lift the film holder from
> tank to tank in the dark.
>
> So my question(s) is/are simple: I've heard that because the processing
> tanks for 4x5 film take so long to fill, uneven development could result.
> Is this a real problem, or is it the opinion of someone really obsessive?
> Would I be better off making a light tight space to do this?
>
> Advice welcome from all.
>
> Thanks.

Look for a used 8x10 Unicolor Unidrum drum or like printing drum that allows
4x5 prints. EBay is one source. Something like 150 ml of solution each
step needed to process 4 sheets of 4x5. Very even development and table
space required is minimal - about 1' x 2' will be ample...enough to manually
roll the loaded drum from side to side if not using a mechanical roller
device. You can load the drum in a change bag, attach the cover/lid, and do
all the processing in room light.

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/unicolor/

The BTZS tubes are an alternative, though each tube takes only one sheet of
film rather than the up-to-four that the Unidrum does.

http://www.viewcamerastore.com/product_info.php?cPath=27_74&products_id=36

And as Phil Davis pointed out in his book *Beyond the Zone System*, you can
make your own BTZS type tubes. I've done that and they work well except for
the slight leakage as they are rolled on the counter surface. I never could
get that leakage problem resolved. Maybe if I could have located some large
enough o-rings? I finally tired of that leakage and got myself some BTZS
tubes off EBay for the one or two sheet processing. At some 50ml of
solution each step, they work very well.
 >> Stay informed about: Dumb question re: processing 4x5 

On 10/20/2007 9:27 AM Robert Chin spake thus:

> So my question(s) is/are simple: I've heard that because the processing
> tanks for 4x5 film take so long to fill, uneven development could result.
> Is this a real problem, or is it the opinion of someone really obsessive?
> Would I be better off making a light tight space to do this?

Short answer: forget tray processing. This will kill several birds w/one
stone.

I use a print drum (Beseler Unicolor) to process 4x5 film. Gives
excellent results with minimal amount of chemistry, and does it in
*daylight*. You only need to load the drum in the dark (which you can do
in a dark closet). It gives excellent, consistent, streak-free results.
You can buy the equipment cheap on eBay (that's where I got mine).
 >> Stay informed about: Dumb question re: processing 4x5 

Robert Chin wrote:
> I'm sorry if this has been answered before. This is a legit question so
> please bear with me.
>
> My set up is not optimum. I do not have a dedicated darkroom (for now at
> least). I've done many many rolls of film over the years. I throw
> everyting into a changing bag, load up a reel and no problem.
>
> I'm getting ready to process 4x5 sheet film for the first time. It
> requires a bit more space to handle the sheet film than rolls. Since I
> do not have a dedicated darkroom, I can't fill the tanks with the
> necessary chemicals, leave them on a tabletop, and just lift the film
> holder from tank to tank in the dark.
>
> So my question(s) is/are simple: I've heard that because the processing
> tanks for 4x5 film take so long to fill, uneven development could
> result. Is this a real problem, or is it the opinion of someone really
> obsessive? Would I be better off making a light tight space to do this?
>
I use the Jobo 2500 series sheet film tank and reels; need loader too.
If you use a Jobo processor (I use CPE-2), it takes relatively little
chemistry, and it loads quite fast.


--
.~. Jean-David Beyer Registered Linux User 85642.
/V\ PGP-Key: 9A2FC99A Registered Machine 241939.
/( )\ Shrewsbury, New Jersey http://counter.li.org
^^-^^ 12:25:01 up 13 days, 20:01, 5 users, load average: 5.40, 5.25, 5.21
 >> Stay informed about: Dumb question re: processing 4x5 

On Sat, 20 Oct 2007 12:27:00 -0400, "Robert Chin" <bchin_us.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote:

>I'm sorry if this has been answered before. This is a legit question so
>please bear with me.
>
>My set up is not optimum. I do not have a dedicated darkroom (for now at
>least). I've done many many rolls of film over the years. I throw
>everyting into a changing bag, load up a reel and no problem.
>
>I'm getting ready to process 4x5 sheet film for the first time. It requires
>a bit more space to handle the sheet film than rolls. Since I do not have a
>dedicated darkroom, I can't fill the tanks with the necessary chemicals,
>leave them on a tabletop, and just lift the film holder from tank to tank in
>the dark.
>
>So my question(s) is/are simple: I've heard that because the processing
>tanks for 4x5 film take so long to fill, uneven development could result.
>Is this a real problem, or is it the opinion of someone really obsessive?
>Would I be better off making a light tight space to do this?
>
>Advice welcome from all.
>
>Thanks.
Can you fill the developer tank in advance, and lower the film holder into it in
total darkness? If so, that takes care of the filling. Then, you can, in the
dark, take the top off the tank, dump the developer and pour in the stop bath.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Retired Shop Rat: 14,647 days in a GM plant.
Now I can do what I enjoy: Large Format Photography

Web Site: www.destarr.com
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
 >> Stay informed about: Dumb question re: processing 4x5 

Depends on the volume but for trials (at least) get a 8x10
paper drum, one that has dividers to separate 4x5 sheets,
load it in your changing bag (note you may need to invest in
a larger bag) and process on the tabletop in room light. i
use a Unidrum and Uniroller for roll film and use an Omega
Drum (Simmard) on the same base for the little sheet film I
do. I presoak and the Uniroller seems ideal since it
reverses direction automatically. The presoak extends
processing times a bit but the constant agitation seems to
shorten the processing times by about the same amount so I
start with the "large tank" time and temperature and adjust
if not satisfied with the contrast.

Much has been written on the concept, lots of Google hits
and the old Jobo newsletter are a goldmine of rotary
processing info using theirs or any other rotary equipment.

David Starr wrote:
> On Sat, 20 Oct 2007 12:27:00 -0400, "Robert Chin" <bchin_us RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> I'm sorry if this has been answered before. This is a legit question so
>> please bear with me.
>>
>> My set up is not optimum. I do not have a dedicated darkroom (for now at
>> least). I've done many many rolls of film over the years. I throw
>> everyting into a changing bag, load up a reel and no problem.
>>
>> I'm getting ready to process 4x5 sheet film for the first time. It requires
>> a bit more space to handle the sheet film than rolls. Since I do not have a
>> dedicated darkroom, I can't fill the tanks with the necessary chemicals,
>> leave them on a tabletop, and just lift the film holder from tank to tank in
>> the dark.
>>
>> So my question(s) is/are simple: I've heard that because the processing
>> tanks for 4x5 film take so long to fill, uneven development could result.
>> Is this a real problem, or is it the opinion of someone really obsessive?
>> Would I be better off making a light tight space to do this?
>>
>> Advice welcome from all.
>>
>> Thanks.
> Can you fill the developer tank in advance, and lower the film holder into it in
> total darkness? If so, that takes care of the filling. Then, you can, in the
> dark, take the top off the tank, dump the developer and pour in the stop bath.
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> Retired Shop Rat: 14,647 days in a GM plant.
> Now I can do what I enjoy: Large Format Photography
>
> Web Site: www.destarr.com
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
 >> Stay informed about: Dumb question re: processing 4x5 

"darkroommike" <darkroommike.TakeThisOut@cableone.net> wrote in message
news:13hmulpn4gn8ncb@corp.supernews.com...
> Depends on the volume but for trials (at least) get a 8x10
> paper drum, one that has dividers to separate 4x5 sheets,
> load it in your changing bag (note you may need to invest
> in a larger bag) and process on the tabletop in room
> light. i use a Unidrum and Uniroller for roll film and
> use an Omega Drum (Simmard) on the same base for the
> little sheet film I do. I presoak and the Uniroller seems
> ideal since it reverses direction automatically. The
> presoak extends processing times a bit but the constant
> agitation seems to shorten the processing times by about
> the same amount so I start with the "large tank" time and
> temperature and adjust if not satisfied with the contrast.
>
> Much has been written on the concept, lots of Google hits
> and the old Jobo newsletter are a goldmine of rotary
> processing info using theirs or any other rotary
> equipment.
>
> David Starr wrote:
>> On Sat, 20 Oct 2007 12:27:00 -0400, "Robert Chin"
>> <bchin_us.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm sorry if this has been answered before. This is a
>>> legit question so please bear with me.
>>>
>>> My set up is not optimum. I do not have a dedicated
>>> darkroom (for now at least). I've done many many rolls
>>> of film over the years. I throw everyting into a
>>> changing bag, load up a reel and no problem.
>>>
>>> I'm getting ready to process 4x5 sheet film for the
>>> first time. It requires a bit more space to handle the
>>> sheet film than rolls. Since I do not have a dedicated
>>> darkroom, I can't fill the tanks with the necessary
>>> chemicals, leave them on a tabletop, and just lift the
>>> film holder from tank to tank in the dark.
>>>
>>> So my question(s) is/are simple: I've heard that
>>> because the processing tanks for 4x5 film take so long
>>> to fill, uneven development could result. Is this a real
>>> problem, or is it the opinion of someone really
>>> obsessive? Would I be better off making a light tight
>>> space to do this?
>>>
>>> Advice welcome from all.
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>> Can you fill the developer tank in advance, and lower the
>> film holder into it in
>> total darkness? If so, that takes care of the filling.
>> Then, you can, in the
>> dark, take the top off the tank, dump the developer and
>> pour in the stop
>> bath. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>> - - - - - - - - - -
>> Retired Shop Rat: 14,647 days in a GM plant.
>> Now I can do what I enjoy: Large Format Photography
>>
>> Web Site: www.destarr.com
>> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>> - - - - - -

I also use Unicolor and Besler print drums for sheet
film. I have found that I can get "bromide streaks" on
occasion if the drums are rotated using the Unicolor motor
base unless they are taken off several times during
development and agitated sideways. Evidently there is not
enough turbulance in the flow of the developer to move the
reaction products away from the development sites in the
long direction of the drum. I've had this problem
specifically with Rodinal. Its likely it may not happen with
other developers but its worth beign aware of.
The streaks show up as lines of lighter density on
either side of dense highlights on the negative in the
direction of rotation.


--
---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk.TakeThisOut@ix.netcom.com
 >> Stay informed about: Dumb question re: processing 4x5 

On 10/21/2007 2:42 PM Richard Knoppow spake thus:

> "darkroommike" <darkroommike.DeleteThis@cableone.net> wrote in message
> news:13hmulpn4gn8ncb@corp.supernews.com...
>
>> Depends on the volume but for trials (at least) get a 8x10
>> paper drum, one that has dividers to separate 4x5 sheets,
>> load it in your changing bag (note you may need to invest
>> in a larger bag) and process on the tabletop in room
>> light. i use a Unidrum and Uniroller for roll film and
>> use an Omega Drum (Simmard) on the same base for the
>> little sheet film I do.

[snip]

> I also use Unicolor and Besler print drums for sheet
> film. I have found that I can get "bromide streaks" on
> occasion if the drums are rotated using the Unicolor motor
> base unless they are taken off several times during
> development and agitated sideways. Evidently there is not
> enough turbulance in the flow of the developer to move the
> reaction products away from the development sites in the
> long direction of the drum. I've had this problem
> specifically with Rodinal. Its likely it may not happen with
> other developers but its worth beign aware of.

For what it's worth, I also use the Unicolor drum with the same motor
base, and I've *never* gotten development streaks, but I've never used
Rodinal in the drum. Just D-76, Microdol-X and HC-110, all without any
problems.
 >> Stay informed about: Dumb question re: processing 4x5 

"Richard Knoppow" <dickburk.RemoveThis@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:13hnhtoo4m2pf18@corp.supernews.com...
>
snip
> I also use Unicolor and Besler print drums for sheet film. I have
> found that I can get "bromide streaks" on occasion if the drums are
> rotated using the Unicolor motor base unless they are taken off several
> times during development and agitated sideways. Evidently there is not
> enough turbulance in the flow of the developer to move the reaction
> products away from the development sites in the long direction of the
> drum. I've had this problem specifically with Rodinal. Its likely it may
> not happen with other developers but its worth beign aware of.
> The streaks show up as lines of lighter density on either side of
> dense highlights on the negative in the direction of rotation.
>
>
What if the base were tilted just a couple of degrees? Of course this could
make the streaks slightly diagonal, but as the developer 'runs into' the end
of the tank perhaps it would agitate it sufficiently to prevent the streaks.
I'd try it myself, but I've never experienced the problem. Maybe because I
can't seem to level the motor base! (I use either HC-110 or C-41)
 >> Stay informed about: Dumb question re: processing 4x5 

"Ken Hart" <kwhart DeleteThis @aec.nu> wrote

> What if the base were tilted just a couple of degrees?

Then the drum 'walks' off the roller - at least Jobo drums and
a Unicolor base. I find I have to shim the base so the drum
stays on top - or at the least to be sure it walks so the cap
end rubs up against the base.

I use the older style 4x5 Jobo reels (? clear spiral reels
holding 6 sheets each) and do not have streaking
problems when using them on a motor base (famous last words,
I know...). Developer is usually Microdol-X and film is
usually TMax 100.

--
Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Darkroom Automation: F-Stop Timers, Enlarging Meters
http://www.darkroomautomation.com/index.htm
n o lindan at ix dot netcom dot com
 >> Stay informed about: Dumb question re: processing 4x5 

"Ken Hart" <kwhart.TakeThisOut@aec.nu> wrote in message
news:ffgtrm$ovo$1@aioe.org...
>
> "Richard Knoppow" <dickburk.TakeThisOut@ix.netcom.com> wrote in
> message news:13hnhtoo4m2pf18@corp.supernews.com...
>>
> snip
>> I also use Unicolor and Besler print drums for sheet
>> film. I have found that I can get "bromide streaks" on
>> occasion if the drums are rotated using the Unicolor
>> motor base unless they are taken off several times during
>> development and agitated sideways. Evidently there is not
>> enough turbulance in the flow of the developer to move
>> the reaction products away from the development sites in
>> the long direction of the drum. I've had this problem
>> specifically with Rodinal. Its likely it may not happen
>> with other developers but its worth beign aware of.
>> The streaks show up as lines of lighter density on
>> either side of dense highlights on the negative in the
>> direction of rotation.
>>
>>
> What if the base were tilted just a couple of degrees? Of
> course this could make the streaks slightly diagonal, but
> as the developer 'runs into' the end of the tank perhaps
> it would agitate it sufficiently to prevent the streaks.
> I'd try it myself, but I've never experienced the problem.
> Maybe because I can't seem to level the motor base! (I use
> either HC-110 or C-41)
I don't think this would work. The problem seem to be
that there is not enough sideways agitation to dissipate the
developer reaction products so they are dragged back and
forth across the point where they are being produced. For
medium densities there doesn't seem to be much effect but
where one has a quite high density the effect is quite
noticable. I noticed this first on a cityscape where there
were direct reflections of a low sun in some windows. Those
windows have streak which show up on both print and
negative.
Some developer reaction products, bromide and iodide for
instance, inhibit development, some accelerate it. I am
pretty sure that the negatives I first noticed the effect on
were developed with Rodinal. The active ingredient in
Rodinal is para aminophenol, related to Metol, which is
sensitive to bromide and produces restraining reaction
products.
In normal use for developing color prints the effect is
probably not noticable because prints are developed to the
maximum density possible rather than partial development as
is the case for film. This probably masks any small
uneveness in development.
In any case agitating sideways several times during
development seems to cure the problem.


--
---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk.TakeThisOut@ix.netcom.com
 >> Stay informed about: Dumb question re: processing 4x5 

Robert Chin wrote:
> I'm sorry if this has been answered before. This is a legit question so
> please bear with me.
>
> My set up is not optimum. I do not have a dedicated darkroom (for now at
> least). I've done many many rolls of film over the years. I throw
> everyting into a changing bag, load up a reel and no problem.
>
> I'm getting ready to process 4x5 sheet film for the first time. It requires
> a bit more space to handle the sheet film than rolls. Since I do not have a
> dedicated darkroom, I can't fill the tanks with the necessary chemicals,
> leave them on a tabletop, and just lift the film holder from tank to tank in
> the dark.
>
> So my question(s) is/are simple: I've heard that because the processing
> tanks for 4x5 film take so long to fill, uneven development could result.
> Is this a real problem, or is it the opinion of someone really obsessive?
> Would I be better off making a light tight space to do this?
>
> Advice welcome from all.
>
> Thanks.
>
>
>
>
>
You can use Polaroid 55 for positive and
negatives. Prints very nice, too. And you get that
decorative edge without having to use Photoshop.

There are dedicated film tanks for 4x5 and they
must work or they'd be long gone from the market.
Load the tank in the dark, keep your chemistry
ready and process as you would 35mm in tank.

Cheers
 >> Stay informed about: Dumb question re: processing 4x5 

"Robert Chin" <bchin_us.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ffd9re018fc@news5.newsguy.com...

> So my question(s) is/are simple: I've heard that because the processing
> tanks for 4x5 film take so long to fill, uneven development could result.

Not if you use a film and developer you can pre-soak or use high dilutions
with long development times.

> Is this a real problem, or is it the opinion of someone really obsessive?

It's a problem for people who use film/developer/temps that yield short
development times. Just don't go there.
 >> Stay informed about: Dumb question re: processing 4x5 

In article <13iacqm89oguafe RemoveThis @news.supernews.com>, pico <pico.pico.net> wrote:
>"Robert Chin" <bchin_us RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:ffd9re018fc@news5.newsguy.com...
>
>> So my question(s) is/are simple: I've heard that because the processing
>> tanks for 4x5 film take so long to fill, uneven development could result.
>
>Not if you use a film and developer you can pre-soak or use high dilutions
>with long development times.

It's not really an issue with Jobo drums because the drum is _supposed to_
be already rotating, and the processor level (and the water bath properly
filled so the drum doesn't float at an angle) before you pour anything
into it.

The pre-wet once recommended by Jobo can cause serious problems with some
processes, for example C41. I have also seen it lower film speed when I
was doing film and developer tests. I wouldn't use it.

--
Thor Lancelot Simon tls RemoveThis @rek.tjls.com

"The inconsistency is startling, though admittedly, if consistency is to
be abandoned or transcended, there is no problem." - Noam Chomsky
 >> Stay informed about: Dumb question re: processing 4x5