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user1422

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Since: May 20, 2004
Posts: 9



(Msg. 1) Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 9:40 pm
Post subject: Contrast Index Question: Newbie
Archived from groups: rec>photo>darkroom (more info?)

Can someone explain to me contrast indexes. Are they published for each B&W
film, or do I have to calculate it by myself? TIA.

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mikescarpitti

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Since: Jun 17, 2004
Posts: 1674



(Msg. 2) Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 9:40 pm
Post subject: Re: Contrast Index Question: Newbie [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"In The Trenches" <no DeleteThis @no.domain.com> wrote in message news:<BqMsc.588797$Ig.273737@pd7tw2no>...
 > Can someone explain to me contrast indexes. Are they published for each B&W
 > film, or do I have to calculate it by myself? TIA.

'Contrast Index' (CI) is a measurement of contrast of B&W film, and
varies with the degree of development. Kodak's times given in their
instructions usually produce a CI of about 0.57, which is about
optimum for diffusion enlargers. CI 0.43 or so is ideal for condenser
enlargers, and is obtained by reducing the developing times given by
about 25%.

You don't calculate this number or use it at all. It is simply for
measurement purposes.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->

 >> Stay informed about: Contrast Index Question: Newbie 
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user1422

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Since: May 20, 2004
Posts: 9



(Msg. 3) Posted: Wed May 26, 2004 5:00 am
Post subject: Re: Contrast Index Question: Newbie [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Thanks, a few more questions though, how is the CI derived?. What do I use
to measure it? What does the number actually mean? Is there a chart
somewhere? I've got a condenser head on my MX45 and I've just been
developing as per their instructions on the box of film, so probably, I've
been doing everything at .57. Could I correct this by reprinting using my
vari contrast filters or will that make the problem worse? Thx.


"Michael Scarpitti" <mikescarpitti DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:2fd2ff8c.0405251635.43cff177@posting.google.com...
 > "In The Trenches" <no DeleteThis @no.domain.com> wrote in message
news:<BqMsc.588797$Ig.273737@pd7tw2no>...
  > > Can someone explain to me contrast indexes. Are they published for each
B&W
  > > film, or do I have to calculate it by myself? TIA.
 >
 > 'Contrast Index' (CI) is a measurement of contrast of B&W film, and
 > varies with the degree of development. Kodak's times given in their
 > instructions usually produce a CI of about 0.57, which is about
 > optimum for diffusion enlargers. CI 0.43 or so is ideal for condenser
 > enlargers, and is obtained by reducing the developing times given by
 > about 25%.
 >
 > You don't calculate this number or use it at all. It is simply for
 > measurement purposes.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Contrast Index Question: Newbie 
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user1422

External


Since: May 20, 2004
Posts: 9



(Msg. 4) Posted: Wed May 26, 2004 5:10 am
Post subject: Re: Contrast Index Question: Newbie [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

One more thing. If I'm reducing dev times should I also be rating my film
down too. i.e. 400->320 and 125 down to 100? Or what happens in this
instance.

"Michael Scarpitti" <mikescarpitti.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:2fd2ff8c.0405251635.43cff177@posting.google.com...
 > "In The Trenches" <no.RemoveThis@no.domain.com> wrote in message
news:<BqMsc.588797$Ig.273737@pd7tw2no>...
  > > Can someone explain to me contrast indexes. Are they published for each
B&W
  > > film, or do I have to calculate it by myself? TIA.
 >
 > 'Contrast Index' (CI) is a measurement of contrast of B&W film, and
 > varies with the degree of development. Kodak's times given in their
 > instructions usually produce a CI of about 0.57, which is about
 > optimum for diffusion enlargers. CI 0.43 or so is ideal for condenser
 > enlargers, and is obtained by reducing the developing times given by
 > about 25%.
 >
 > You don't calculate this number or use it at all. It is simply for
 > measurement purposes.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Contrast Index Question: Newbie 
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dickburk

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Since: Jul 01, 2004
Posts: 1173



(Msg. 5) Posted: Wed May 26, 2004 5:43 am
Post subject: Re: Contrast Index Question: Newbie [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"In The Trenches" <no.RemoveThis@no.domain.com> wrote in message
news:BqMsc.588797$Ig.273737@pd7tw2no...
 > Can someone explain to me contrast indexes. Are they
published for each B&W
 > film, or do I have to calculate it by myself? TIA.
 >
Contrast Index, or CI, is a method of specifying contrast
devised by Kodak to be applicable to a large variety of
materials.
Contrast is the slope of the characteristic curve. This
curve shows the relationship between exposure and density.
It varies with development: the more the film is developed
the steeper the curve will be and the higher the contrast.
At one time contrast was defined as the slop of this curve
at a point on the straight line portion. Actual film curves
vary in slope from low to high densities. The difference in
slope is determined by the way the emulsion is made and
represents the distribution of sensitivity of the silver
halide particals which make up the emulsion. The shape of
the curve is decided on by the manufacturer to yield a
certain tonal rendition. The curve has three parts: the toe,
the straight line, and the shoulder. The toe is the low
density part. In general this has a lower contrast than the
straight line portion. The shadows are recoreded in this
region. The straight line portion represents most of the
film's recording range. It records differences in brightness
as a linear change in density. This is the region used for
most of the brightness information in the photo. The
shoulder is the high exposure- high density part of the
curve. Again, the contrast is lower than in the straight
line portion. Most modern films have such a long range of
densities that they never reach the shoulder in normal use
but many older films did resulting in "blocked" highlights.
Until about the 1940's contrast was usually measured as
"gamma" Gamma is the contrast of the straight line portion
of the curve. However, most films record part of the image
in the toe region and many films have relatively long toe
sections. Some, like Tri-X sheet film and the discontinued
Plus-X sheet film, have no straight line portion, the
contrast increasing with density at all values. For films
like this measuring contrast as gamma can be very misleading
about the printing quality of the negative. For instance, a
long toe film, like Tri-X Pan sheet film, when compared to a
short toe film, like T-Max 400, will have much lower
highlight density when developed to the same gamma. One
solution to this was the development of Average Contrast, or
bar-G (i.e., the letter with a dash over it to indicate its
an averaged value). Average contrast is, essentially, a
straight line drawn from the minimum density to some maximum
density. For the ISO method of measuring film speed bar-G is
defined indirectly by the specified exposure range and
expected resulting density range. For this method the range
of exposure is log 1.30. The film is developed so that the
density resulting from the maximum exposure is log 0.9 above
base density plus fog. The speed is measured between this
point and a minimum of logd 0.1 above base density and fog
for a density range of log 0.8.
Contrast Index is similar to bar-G but it specifies a
minimum density of log 0.2 above base and fog and is the
slope measured from this point to a high density point
corresponding to a range of LogE 2.0 from the exposure
needed to produce the low density reference. This is a more
realistic range of exposure in normal photography and the
reference point of logD 0.2 above base and fog is far enough
up the toe to eliminate problems with very low contrast toe
regions (i.e., no shadow detail). Contrast Index is
applicable to all sorts of film, including special purpose
films, like high contrast copy or graphic arts films.
While CI can be determined from a film curve it is easier
to measure using a graphic overlay designed by Kodak Labs.
These used to be available from Kodak but have probably been
discontinued or, perhaps, are available from Silver Pixel
Press.
CI was originally described in a paper published by the
Kodak Research Labs.

"Contrast Index" C.N.Nelson and J.A.C.Yule, _Photographic
Science and Engineering_ V. 10, No. 1, January-Febuary 1966

It is also described in detail in several books on
photographic science.

I should clarify that two negatives on different films
developed to the same contrast index will not look the same.
The curve of the film has a strong influence on tonal
rendition, however, at the same CI both negatives will print
on the same grade of paper and yield reasonably good prints.
Where they are developed to the same _gamma_ they will not
print on the same paper grade and the long toe film may have
inadequate shadow detail on any paper.

Kodak uses CI for its contrast specifications. Agfa seems to
still use gamma, and Ilford and others use bar-G.


--
---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk.RemoveThis@ix.netcom.com<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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aasainz

External


Since: Mar 04, 2004
Posts: 34



(Msg. 6) Posted: Wed May 26, 2004 7:52 am
Post subject: Re: Contrast Index Question: Newbie [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Of course you can calculate it. But it is not simple. You calculate it by
contact printing a step wedge on your film and developing to whatever time the
manufacturer recommends or to the time you want. Now you measure the density
of the wedge images and plot the film curve and then use the definition of
contrast index to calculate what you got.

It is not easy but it is doable.

Kodak gives CI values for its recommended developing times but they are for
specific types of enlargers (like the OP said, diffusion enlargers) and you
may end up with a negative that is too contrasty if you use a condenwer enlarger.

Kodak is the only manufacturer that publishes CI values for its films, as far
as I know. Perhaps there are a couple of others who do the same but I am not
familiar with them.

If you are interested there is a book "Beyond the Zone System" by Phil Davis
that goes into the subject at great depth. It is basically applied
sensitometry which is a good defintion of the Zone system.

Mr. Scarpitti's postings are considered to be garbage by the majority of the
posters in this newsgroup. Once in a while he says something worthwhile but it
is lost in the noise of his hatred for the Zone System. I suggest you take
them with a grain of salt until you have read a few more of his posts and then
you can make your own opinion.

Best regards

Bert

In The Trenches wrote:
 > Thanks, a few more questions though, how is the CI derived?. What do I use
 > to measure it? What does the number actually mean? Is there a chart
 > somewhere? I've got a condenser head on my MX45 and I've just been
 > developing as per their instructions on the box of film, so probably, I've
 > been doing everything at .57. Could I correct this by reprinting using my
 > vari contrast filters or will that make the problem worse? Thx.
 >
 >
 > "Michael Scarpitti" <mikescarpitti.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
 > news:2fd2ff8c.0405251635.43cff177@posting.google.com...
 >
  >>"In The Trenches" <no.DeleteThis@no.domain.com> wrote in message
 >
 > news:<BqMsc.588797$Ig.273737@pd7tw2no>...
 >
   >>>Can someone explain to me contrast indexes. Are they published for each
 >
 > B&W
 >
   >>>film, or do I have to calculate it by myself? TIA.
  >>
  >>'Contrast Index' (CI) is a measurement of contrast of B&W film, and
  >>varies with the degree of development. Kodak's times given in their
  >>instructions usually produce a CI of about 0.57, which is about
  >>optimum for diffusion enlargers. CI 0.43 or so is ideal for condenser
  >>enlargers, and is obtained by reducing the developing times given by
  >>about 25%.
  >>
  >>You don't calculate this number or use it at all. It is simply for
  >>measurement purposes.
 >
 >
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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aasainz

External


Since: Mar 04, 2004
Posts: 34



(Msg. 7) Posted: Wed May 26, 2004 8:13 am
Post subject: Re: Contrast Index Question: Newbie [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

In The Trenches wrote:

 > One more thing. If I'm reducing dev times should I also be rating my film
 > down too. i.e. 400->320 and 125 down to 100? Or what happens in this
 > instance.

No, you reduce the times to reduce the contrast. If you should lower the film
speed you have just undone what you did by reducing the developing times.

CI is a measurement of contrast, similar to gamma but the measurements are
taken differently and the two values are not exactly interchangeable.

I will check to see if I can find the definition of CI. Basically it is the
slope of a line drawn in the H&D curve between two specified points.

OK, here it is, taken from "Beyond the Zone System" p29 and p30. The
definition of CI is the slope of a line drawn from a point in the curve at
0.1 units above base+fog to a point that is 2.0 units away from the first
point. You may have to see the graphic to understand this.

Bert

 >
 > "Michael Scarpitti" <mikescarpitti.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote in message
 > news:2fd2ff8c.0405251635.43cff177@posting.google.com...
 >
  >>"In The Trenches" <no.TakeThisOut@no.domain.com> wrote in message
 >
 > news:<BqMsc.588797$Ig.273737@pd7tw2no>...
 >
   >>>Can someone explain to me contrast indexes. Are they published for each
 >
 > B&W
 >
   >>>film, or do I have to calculate it by myself? TIA.
  >>
  >>'Contrast Index' (CI) is a measurement of contrast of B&W film, and
  >>varies with the degree of development. Kodak's times given in their
  >>instructions usually produce a CI of about 0.57, which is about
  >>optimum for diffusion enlargers. CI 0.43 or so is ideal for condenser
  >>enlargers, and is obtained by reducing the developing times given by
  >>about 25%.
  >>
  >>You don't calculate this number or use it at all. It is simply for
  >>measurement purposes.
 >
 >
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Contrast Index Question: Newbie 
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mikescarpitti

External


Since: Jun 17, 2004
Posts: 1674



(Msg. 8) Posted: Wed May 26, 2004 1:09 pm
Post subject: Re: Contrast Index Question: Newbie [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"In The Trenches" <no DeleteThis @no.domain.com> wrote in message news:<80Tsc.589836$oR5.225709@pd7tw3no>...
 > One more thing. If I'm reducing dev times should I also be rating my film
 > down too. i.e. 400->320 and 125 down to 100? Or what happens in this
 > instance.

Probably so. Reducing development time also reduces speed just a
touch. The only way to tell is to bracket a series at 1/3 stop
intervals and see which is best.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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mikescarpitti

External


Since: Jun 17, 2004
Posts: 1674



(Msg. 9) Posted: Wed May 26, 2004 1:10 pm
Post subject: Re: Contrast Index Question: Newbie [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

BertS <aasainz RemoveThis @ix.netcom.com> wrote in message news:<ZnVsc.38$Yd3.18@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>...
 > Of course you can calculate it. But it is not simple. You calculate it by
 > contact printing a step wedge on your film and developing to whatever time the
 > manufacturer recommends or to the time you want. Now you measure the density
 > of the wedge images and plot the film curve and then use the definition of
 > contrast index to calculate what you got.
 >
 > It is not easy but it is doable.
 >
 > Kodak gives CI values for its recommended developing times but they are for
 > specific types of enlargers (like the OP said, diffusion enlargers) and you
 > may end up with a negative that is too contrasty if you use a condenwer enlarger.
 >
 > Kodak is the only manufacturer that publishes CI values for its films, as far
 > as I know. Perhaps there are a couple of others who do the same but I am not
 > familiar with them.
 >
 > If you are interested there is a book "Beyond the Zone System" by Phil Davis
 > that goes into the subject at great depth. It is basically applied
 > sensitometry which is a good defintion of the Zone system.
 >
 > Mr. Scarpitti's postings are considered to be garbage by the majority of the
 > posters in this newsgroup.

Only by the ignorant ones...if that is the majority, so be it....

 >Once in a while he says something worthwhile but it
 > is lost in the noise of his hatred for the Zone System. I suggest you take
 > them with a grain of salt until you have read a few more of his posts and then
 > you can make your own opinion.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Contrast Index Question: Newbie 
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mikescarpitti

External


Since: Jun 17, 2004
Posts: 1674



(Msg. 10) Posted: Wed May 26, 2004 1:17 pm
Post subject: Re: Contrast Index Question: Newbie [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"In The Trenches" <no.RemoveThis@no.domain.com> wrote in message news:<nTSsc.589752$oR5.468316@pd7tw3no>...
 > Thanks, a few more questions though, how is the CI derived?.

See 'Developing' by Jacobsen and Jacobsen, 18th edition, page 40-41.

 > What do I use
 > to measure it? What does the number actually mean? Is there a chart
 > somewhere? I've got a condenser head on my MX45 and I've just been
 > developing as per their instructions on the box of film, so probably, I've
 > been doing everything at .57. Could I correct this by reprinting using my
 > vari contrast filters or will that make the problem worse? Thx.

No, you need to reduce the time about 25% from 'standard' times so
that your negatives are not too contrasty. What film format are you
using? If you are using 35mm, most of your negatives should print well
on about grade #2 1/2 or 3 or so. If you are using 4x5, most of your
negatives should print well on about grade #2 or 2 1/2 or so.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Contrast Index Question: Newbie 
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user1422

External


Since: May 20, 2004
Posts: 9



(Msg. 11) Posted: Wed May 26, 2004 3:47 pm
Post subject: Re: Contrast Index Question: Newbie [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

I've some some more info at <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.infodotinc.com/photographyadv/19.htm" target="_blank">http://www.infodotinc.com/photographyadv/19.htm</a>
They've even posted a Contrast Index chart. I'm still grappling with what
all this means in practical terms to my darkroom work but I think it's worth
knowing. I have a darkroom and contrast is a big part of developing so might
as well know it all or as much as possible. Do people who develop their own
film regularly consult contrast indices? Or are they consider something to
know about and forget.?



"BertS" <aasainz.DeleteThis@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:BHVsc.48$Yd3.14@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
 > In The Trenches wrote:
 >
  > > One more thing. If I'm reducing dev times should I also be rating my
film
  > > down too. i.e. 400->320 and 125 down to 100? Or what happens in this
  > > instance.
 >
 > No, you reduce the times to reduce the contrast. If you should lower the
film
 > speed you have just undone what you did by reducing the developing times.
 >
 > CI is a measurement of contrast, similar to gamma but the measurements are
 > taken differently and the two values are not exactly interchangeable.
 >
 > I will check to see if I can find the definition of CI. Basically it is
the
 > slope of a line drawn in the H&D curve between two specified points.
 >
 > OK, here it is, taken from "Beyond the Zone System" p29 and p30. The
 > definition of CI is the slope of a line drawn from a point in the curve at
 > 0.1 units above base+fog to a point that is 2.0 units away from the first
 > point. You may have to see the graphic to understand this.
 >
 > Bert
 >
  > >
  > > "Michael Scarpitti" <mikescarpitti.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
  > > news:2fd2ff8c.0405251635.43cff177@posting.google.com...
  > >
   > >>"In The Trenches" <no.DeleteThis@no.domain.com> wrote in message
  > >
  > > news:<BqMsc.588797$Ig.273737@pd7tw2no>...
  > >
   > >>>Can someone explain to me contrast indexes. Are they published for each
  > >
  > > B&W
  > >
   > >>>film, or do I have to calculate it by myself? TIA.
   > >>
   > >>'Contrast Index' (CI) is a measurement of contrast of B&W film, and
   > >>varies with the degree of development. Kodak's times given in their
   > >>instructions usually produce a CI of about 0.57, which is about
   > >>optimum for diffusion enlargers. CI 0.43 or so is ideal for condenser
   > >>enlargers, and is obtained by reducing the developing times given by
   > >>about 25%.
   > >>
   > >>You don't calculate this number or use it at all. It is simply for
   > >>measurement purposes.
  > >
  > >
  > >
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Contrast Index Question: Newbie 
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user1422

External


Since: May 20, 2004
Posts: 9



(Msg. 12) Posted: Wed May 26, 2004 4:04 pm
Post subject: Re: Contrast Index Question: Newbie [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Excellent post. Clearly I need to do some more reading. But I think you've
provided a starting point and historical perspective as well. In general
terms should I be manipulating the contrast on the negative or is it better
to do it post development using the enlarger?


"Richard Knoppow" <dickburk.TakeThisOut@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:gvTsc.9973$Tn6.1507@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
 >
 > "In The Trenches" <no.TakeThisOut@no.domain.com> wrote in message
 > news:BqMsc.588797$Ig.273737@pd7tw2no...
  > > Can someone explain to me contrast indexes. Are they
 > published for each B&W
  > > film, or do I have to calculate it by myself? TIA.
  > >
 > Contrast Index, or CI, is a method of specifying contrast
 > devised by Kodak to be applicable to a large variety of
 > materials.
 > Contrast is the slope of the characteristic curve. This
 > curve shows the relationship between exposure and density.
 > It varies with development: the more the film is developed
 > the steeper the curve will be and the higher the contrast.
 > At one time contrast was defined as the slop of this curve
 > at a point on the straight line portion. Actual film curves
 > vary in slope from low to high densities. The difference in
 > slope is determined by the way the emulsion is made and
 > represents the distribution of sensitivity of the silver
 > halide particals which make up the emulsion. The shape of
 > the curve is decided on by the manufacturer to yield a
 > certain tonal rendition. The curve has three parts: the toe,
 > the straight line, and the shoulder. The toe is the low
 > density part. In general this has a lower contrast than the
 > straight line portion. The shadows are recoreded in this
 > region. The straight line portion represents most of the
 > film's recording range. It records differences in brightness
 > as a linear change in density. This is the region used for
 > most of the brightness information in the photo. The
 > shoulder is the high exposure- high density part of the
 > curve. Again, the contrast is lower than in the straight
 > line portion. Most modern films have such a long range of
 > densities that they never reach the shoulder in normal use
 > but many older films did resulting in "blocked" highlights.
 > Until about the 1940's contrast was usually measured as
 > "gamma" Gamma is the contrast of the straight line portion
 > of the curve. However, most films record part of the image
 > in the toe region and many films have relatively long toe
 > sections. Some, like Tri-X sheet film and the discontinued
 > Plus-X sheet film, have no straight line portion, the
 > contrast increasing with density at all values. For films
 > like this measuring contrast as gamma can be very misleading
 > about the printing quality of the negative. For instance, a
 > long toe film, like Tri-X Pan sheet film, when compared to a
 > short toe film, like T-Max 400, will have much lower
 > highlight density when developed to the same gamma. One
 > solution to this was the development of Average Contrast, or
 > bar-G (i.e., the letter with a dash over it to indicate its
 > an averaged value). Average contrast is, essentially, a
 > straight line drawn from the minimum density to some maximum
 > density. For the ISO method of measuring film speed bar-G is
 > defined indirectly by the specified exposure range and
 > expected resulting density range. For this method the range
 > of exposure is log 1.30. The film is developed so that the
 > density resulting from the maximum exposure is log 0.9 above
 > base density plus fog. The speed is measured between this
 > point and a minimum of logd 0.1 above base density and fog
 > for a density range of log 0.8.
 > Contrast Index is similar to bar-G but it specifies a
 > minimum density of log 0.2 above base and fog and is the
 > slope measured from this point to a high density point
 > corresponding to a range of LogE 2.0 from the exposure
 > needed to produce the low density reference. This is a more
 > realistic range of exposure in normal photography and the
 > reference point of logD 0.2 above base and fog is far enough
 > up the toe to eliminate problems with very low contrast toe
 > regions (i.e., no shadow detail). Contrast Index is
 > applicable to all sorts of film, including special purpose
 > films, like high contrast copy or graphic arts films.
 > While CI can be determined from a film curve it is easier
 > to measure using a graphic overlay designed by Kodak Labs.
 > These used to be available from Kodak but have probably been
 > discontinued or, perhaps, are available from Silver Pixel
 > Press.
 > CI was originally described in a paper published by the
 > Kodak Research Labs.
 >
 > "Contrast Index" C.N.Nelson and J.A.C.Yule, _Photographic
 > Science and Engineering_ V. 10, No. 1, January-Febuary 1966
 >
 > It is also described in detail in several books on
 > photographic science.
 >
 > I should clarify that two negatives on different films
 > developed to the same contrast index will not look the same.
 > The curve of the film has a strong influence on tonal
 > rendition, however, at the same CI both negatives will print
 > on the same grade of paper and yield reasonably good prints.
 > Where they are developed to the same _gamma_ they will not
 > print on the same paper grade and the long toe film may have
 > inadequate shadow detail on any paper.
 >
 > Kodak uses CI for its contrast specifications. Agfa seems to
 > still use gamma, and Ilford and others use bar-G.
 >
 >
 > --
 > ---
 > Richard Knoppow
 > Los Angeles, CA, USA
 > dickburk.TakeThisOut@ix.netcom.com
 >
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Contrast Index Question: Newbie 
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user1231

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Since: Mar 09, 2004
Posts: 78



(Msg. 13) Posted: Wed May 26, 2004 4:04 pm
Post subject: Re: Contrast Index Question: Newbie [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

In The Trenches wrote:
 > In general
 > terms should I be manipulating the contrast on the negative or is it better
 > to do it post development using the enlarger?
 >

It depends on exactly what you're doing, and what type of equipment that
you're using. If you're using large format (4x5" or bigger), then most
people very the development for each sheet of film. You want to give
the exposure and development that will best convey the qualities that
you want in your print. Usually this means exposing and developing your
negatives with grade 2 paper in mind. That way you give yourself the
greatest range for manipulation of the print using different printing
contrasts.

With roll film (120mm or 35mm), it's difficult to give each frame
different development. People who vary development with these films
either have multiple cameras/film backs, or they try and shoot whole
rolls of film under similar conditions. Another consideration is that
developing a film longer gives bigger grain. In large format this is
often not a problem, but it can be with the smaller formats. Often times
roll film users aim to print on grade 3 paper. Doing so will lead to
shorter film development, which minimizes grain size.

-Peter De Smidt<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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mikescarpitti

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Since: Jun 17, 2004
Posts: 1674



(Msg. 14) Posted: Wed May 26, 2004 4:04 pm
Post subject: Re: Contrast Index Question: Newbie [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"In The Trenches" <no.TakeThisOut@no.domain.com> wrote in message news:<8B0tc.561350$Pk3.85185@pd7tw1no>...
 > Excellent post. Clearly I need to do some more reading. But I think you've
 > provided a starting point and historical perspective as well. In general
 > terms should I be manipulating the contrast on the negative or is it better
 > to do it post development using the enlarger?


For small formats, no question that varying the development is
difficult, because on a whole roll of 36 exposures there may be quite
a number of different scenes, each with quite different subject
britness ranges. Thw whole point of 35mm is to have a highly portable
camera with a large capacity roll, so it seems pointless to me to
load short rolls for different development. If you want to do that, go
all the way to a field sheet-film camera.

Increasing development over a basic standard time increases graininess
rapidly. Write to me directly and I'll send you an essay explaining
all this.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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user1422

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Since: May 20, 2004
Posts: 9



(Msg. 15) Posted: Wed May 26, 2004 9:52 pm
Post subject: Re: Contrast Index Question: Newbie [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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I'm rolling short rolls (20-24s) of either Pan X 125 or TMAX 400, I'll shoot
a scene three or four different setups and bracket over three to four
frames, that uses up the roll pretty quick on one subject. I realize there
are quality limits/issues of trying to work the Z*ne System on 35mm, but I'm
basically treating the whole roll as one plate. I'm no
big-pants-print-art-photographer at this point. I'm happy if I get one good
16X20 every month or two or four.... I'm more concern about hitting my mark
consistently at this point, experimenting, and finding what the effects of
adding or subtracting dev times give to highlight and shadows of my
negative. Maybe one day I'll have a 4X5. I use VueScan to create my contact
sheets and sometimes to do a high rez version that I can work with on the
computer. I notice VueScan has different CI's listed under it's black and
white menu for film types, that's what got me started on this whole tangent.
I'm not entirely sure how they affect my scans though probably does
something "post" scan is my guess.

"Michael Scarpitti" <mikescarpitti.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:2fd2ff8c.0405260935.8514497@posting.google.com...
 > "In The Trenches" <no.DeleteThis@no.domain.com> wrote in message
news:<8B0tc.561350$Pk3.85185@pd7tw1no>...
  > > Excellent post. Clearly I need to do some more reading. But I think
you've
  > > provided a starting point and historical perspective as well. In general
  > > terms should I be manipulating the contrast on the negative or is it
better
  > > to do it post development using the enlarger?
 >
 >
 > For small formats, no question that varying the development is
 > difficult, because on a whole roll of 36 exposures there may be quite
 > a number of different scenes, each with quite different subject
 > britness ranges. Thw whole point of 35mm is to have a highly portable
 > camera with a large capacity roll, so it seems pointless to me to
 > load short rolls for different development. If you want to do that, go
 > all the way to a field sheet-film camera.
 >
 > Increasing development over a basic standard time increases graininess
 > rapidly. Write to me directly and I'll send you an essay explaining
 > all this.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Contrast Index Question: Newbie 
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