Color printing paper

In article <1193354398.473439.91910.RemoveThis@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,
fnm.RemoveThis@gmail.com
fnovau.RemoveThis@gmail.com says...
> I'm very much interested in color printing with enlarger and I would
> like to ask some questions to experts of this group
> 1- Which 4x5" films are actually available for color printing?
> 2- Which color paper is available for color printing using
> conventional darkroom enlargers? According my search through US
> distributors I only find Fujicolor Cristal and Kodak Supra Endura and
> I understand kodak will finish production of it very soon. Is there
> any other option?
> 3- I pretend to buy a reasonable quantity of color paper boxes and
> stock it into my fridge but how much time can survive color paper
> without degradation into a fridge? What temperature should be the most
> adequate?
> 4- Is there any real risk during air transport to my country due to
> possible x-ray inspection?
>
Why order from the US when you will have to pay duty and shipments are
more likely to be scanned? There can't be many suppplies you can get
from the US that aren't available in the EU.
 >> Stay informed about: Color printing paper 

"fnm@gmail.com" wrote:
> 4- Is there any real risk during air transport to my country due to
> possible x-ray inspection?

Since you did not say from where you are buying the paper and where it
is going, it is not possible to say. However, if you are ordering from
the U.S., then it is likely that the U.S.P.S. will do some sort of
inspection, such as X-Ray's or the new gamma ray scanners which let them
look at an entire cargo container at once.

Obviously, I can't even guess what will happen while it is traveling,
or when it arrives.

FedEx, UPS, and DHL claim they never X-Ray packages, but to be honest, I
would not trust them 100%. It's always better to ask them about shipments
from a particular place to you to make sure and buy the extra insurance,
if it is offered.

Here packages sent via the postal system arrive without import duty
if they are relatively cheap. Anything sent by courier (such as FedEx,
etc) is taxed at the highest rate they can get away with, which includes
the cost of the item, shipping, clearing fees, etc.

YMMV.

Geoff.


--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm.RemoveThis@mendelson.com N3OWJ/4X1GM
IL Voice: (07)-7424-1667 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838
Visit my 'blog at http://geoffstechno.livejournal.com/
 >> Stay informed about: Color printing paper 

On Oct 26, 5:35 am, t....DeleteThis@panix.com (Thor Lancelot Simon) wrote:
> In article <1193354398.473439.91....DeleteThis@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,
>
> f....DeleteThis@gmail.com <fno....DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote:
> >I'm very much interested in color printing with enlarger and I would
> >like to ask some questions to experts of this group
>
> Good god, why? I still do wet darkroom work in black and white, but
> color printing with an enlarger offers basically no advantages over
> digital printing, requires annoying work with smelly chemicals at
> high temperatures, gives inferior sharpness and image permanence, and
> has a host of other drawbacks. I would certainly not start doing it now.
>

Thank you very much for your advice. After thinking about it I realize
you are right
and i will go to digital. I repeat many thanks¡¡

-Francesc
 >> Stay informed about: Color printing paper 

"fnm@gmail.com" <fnovau DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1193709664.576170.286200@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...

On Oct 26, 5:35 am, t... DeleteThis @panix.com (Thor Lancelot Simon) wrote:
> In article <1193354398.473439.91... DeleteThis @k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,
>
> f... DeleteThis @gmail.com <fno... DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:
> >I'm very much interested in color printing with enlarger and I would
> >like to ask some questions to experts of this group
>
> Good god, why? I still do wet darkroom work in black and white, but
> color printing with an enlarger offers basically no advantages over
> digital printing, requires annoying work with smelly chemicals at
> high temperatures, gives inferior sharpness and image permanence, and
> has a host of other drawbacks. I would certainly not start doing it now.
>

Thank you very much for your advice. After thinking about it I realize
you are right
and i will go to digital. I repeat many thanks¡¡

-Francesc

Sorry, but I respectfully disagree. I enjoy 'wet' darkroom work in color.
But then I have a roller transport processing system that maintains chemical
temperature and replenishment. Such machines are available in all sizes and
configurations, from tabletop to full-fledged minilabs (mine is an old Hope
built in 1984). As for sharpness, that's a function of the lenses used
(camera and enlarger); and for image permanence, Kodak rate their Endura
line of papers at 200 years in the dark or 100 years in the light.

The first thing to remember in color printing is get the density
(light/dark) right, then adjust the color. Never try to make a color
judgement on a priont that is too light or too dark. The second thing to
remember is to write stuff down. Use a "sharpie" brand marker (or similar
waterproof/permanent marker) to write your color filter settings on the test
print. If the second test print looks worse, then you can easily go back to
the earlier settings.

For me, the cost of making one 16"x20" print is about $2.00 (2- 1/4 sheet
test prints and 1 full sheet, plus chems) and the time is about a half hour
(dry-to-dry time is ten minutes, times three prints).
 >> Stay informed about: Color printing paper 

Ken,
I can tell you I also enjoyed in the past darkroom color printing but
today its like trying to swim in a river against the main stream¡¡ I
can tell you some of inmediate problems I would have.
-My enlarger is a 6x6 cm but now I want to use 4x5" film This means I
have to buy a second hand enlarger Although I can find very cheap ones
in USA I have to pay more than $350 for transport to my country Spain
+ $500 for enlarger
-In my country it is only available Endura color paper with 85m rolls.
No boxes of Kodak cut papers available nor Fuji. I talked with Kodak
branch in my country
and they suggested their color paper will not be available very soon¡¡
In front of these difficulties comon sense tells me I must go to
digital in spite of my natural tendency¡¡¡
Greetings
-Francesc


> Sorry, but I respectfully disagree. I enjoy 'wet' darkroom work in color.
> But then I have a roller transport processing system that maintains chemical
> temperature and replenishment. Such machines are available in all sizes and
> configurations, from tabletop to full-fledged minilabs (mine is an old Hope
> built in 1984). As for sharpness, that's a function of the lenses used
> (camera and enlarger); and for image permanence, Kodak rate their Endura
> line of papers at 200 years in the dark or 100 years in the light.
>
> The first thing to remember in color printing is get the density
> (light/dark) right, then adjust the color. Never try to make a color
> judgement on a priont that is too light or too dark. The second thing to
> remember is to write stuff down. Use a "sharpie" brand marker (or similar
> waterproof/permanent marker) to write your color filter settings on the test
> print. If the second test print looks worse, then you can easily go back to
> the earlier settings.
>
> For me, the cost of making one 16"x20" print is about $2.00 (2- 1/4 sheet
> test prints and 1 full sheet, plus chems) and the time is about a half hour
> (dry-to-dry time is ten minutes, times three prints).
 >> Stay informed about: Color printing paper 

In article <1193859316.363966.215810 RemoveThis @y42g2000hsy.googlegroups.com>,
fnm RemoveThis @gmail.com <fnovau RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:
>
>In my country it is only available Endura color paper with 85m rolls.
>No boxes of Kodak cut papers available nor Fuji. I talked with Kodak
>branch in my country and they suggested their color paper will not be
>available very soon

I find this very hard to believe. Many digital printing machines including
those used for high-volume prints from digital originals by large
photofinishers use RA4 color paper as their output medium. I disagree with
Ken about the relative permanence of RA4 versus inkjet prints (I think I'm
hardly the only one skeptical of Kodak's permanence claims for color
materials; Wilhelm became famous for his 1,000 page book on the subject) but
these machines make beautiful prints from both analog and digital originals,
much sharper than can be made by optical enlargement. I think RA4 paper
will be one of the very last silver process photographic products to
disappear.

Single sheets of color paper in boxes, sure. I'm somewhat surprised it's
possible to buy those even now. But you may have been misinformed by
whomever at Kodak you spoke with.

--
Thor Lancelot Simon tls RemoveThis @rek.tjls.com

"The inconsistency is startling, though admittedly, if consistency is to
be abandoned or transcended, there is no problem." - Noam Chomsky
 >> Stay informed about: Color printing paper 

Thor Lancelot Simon wrote:

> Single sheets of color paper in boxes, sure. I'm somewhat surprised it's
> possible to buy those even now. But you may have been misinformed by
> whomever at Kodak you spoke with.

I doubt it. Kodak is not big outside of the U.S. and in Spain their sales
may be low enough not to bother. Almost all of the photofinishers here used
Agfa paper, and I'm sure they have not switched to Kodak.

Geoff.


--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm.TakeThisOut@mendelson.com N3OWJ/4X1GM
IL Voice: (07)-7424-1667 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838
Visit my 'blog at http://geoffstechno.livejournal.com/
 >> Stay informed about: Color printing paper 

use a heat seal bag if heat, use a cold seal bag if cold, etc.
"fnm@gmail.com" <fnovau.RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1193354398.473439.91910@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> I'm very much interested in color printing with enlarger and I would
> like to ask some questions to experts of this group
> 1- Which 4x5" films are actually available for color printing?
> 2- Which color paper is available for color printing using
> conventional darkroom enlargers? According my search through US
> distributors I only find Fujicolor Cristal and Kodak Supra Endura and
> I understand kodak will finish production of it very soon. Is there
> any other option?
> 3- I pretend to buy a reasonable quantity of color paper boxes and
> stock it into my fridge but how much time can survive color paper
> without degradation into a fridge? What temperature should be the most
> adequate?
> 4- Is there any real risk during air transport to my country due to
> possible x-ray inspection?
> Greetings
> -Francesc
>
 >> Stay informed about: Color printing paper 

In article <47799521$0$12739$822641b3@news.adtechcomputers.com>,
David Nebenzahl <nobody.TakeThisOut@but.us.chickens> wrote:

>
> We lost that battle long ago. All hail our new Chinese masters! (as well
> as Indian, Indonesian, etc.)

The American consumer dictates who currently his master is, seldom is it
the Master of personal restraint. Who made your Big screen TV ?

--
Reality is a picture perfected and never looking back.
 >> Stay informed about: Color printing paper 

In article <dee0cb6d-5b32-4e3d-90b6-bba85758666b RemoveThis @j20g2000hsi.googlegroups.com>,
Claudio Bonavolta <claudio RemoveThis @bonavolta.ch> writes:
>
> On 1 jan, 02:04, ____ <internetpho... RemoveThis @deletedmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> "Used" is an operative word, Agfa is DOA. Who makes color paper besides
>> Fuji and Kodak?
>
> Well, Agfa is not completely dead, you can still find films,
> chemicals, mini-labs, etc ...
> These activities have been splitted amongs various companies which
> sells them under the brand Agfa:
> http://www.agfaphoto.com
> Future is still uncertain, for sure.

A couple of years ago, Agfa was split up into two or three companies, one
of which (AgfaPhoto) immediately failed. AgfaPhoto was the one that made
consumer films and papers. When they failed, their assets were sold. An
outfit called A&O bought their chemical division, but my understanding is
that the facilities used to make RA-4 paper and C-41 film have already
been dismantled, and AFAIK nobody is interested in producing them
elsewhere. (A smaller outfit is working to resurrect some AgfaPhoto B&W
products, but they have no plans to make any color materials.) There are
still stocks of the old AgfaPhoto products being sold; the Web site to
which you refer seems to be advertising them. I didn't see any RA-4 papers
on that site, though.

To the best of my knowledge, the remaining Agfa divisions don't make RA-4
paper, although they do make B&W and C-41 films for non-consumer uses
(they sell them for traffic cameras and the like), and some of these get
repackaged by other companies.

> Ilford markets Ilfochrome (last remaining direct positive process) and
> Ilfocolor ...

Ilford also split a while back. Ilford Harman is the UK company that makes
B&W products. The other Ilford makes Ilfochrome, but I *THINK* that
Ilfocolor (their RA-4 product) has been discontinued. Certainly I don't
know of any retailer that sells it. Note that Ilfochrome is useful only
for making prints from slides and it's ridiculously expensive (100 sheets
of 8.5x11-inch paper costs $260 at B&H, for instance).

> Konica I suppose too and most probably others.

Konica withdrew from the photographic film and paper business about a year
ago. You might still find a few Konica products in the supply chain, but
not much is left by now, and what is left will be short-dated or out of
date.

To the best of my knowledge, there are no other RA-4 paper manufacturers
left in the world -- just Kodak and Fuji.

>> If need be I hope Fuji wins, because Kodak will surely
>> discontinue it based on shareholder pandering. At least Fuji speaks the
>> good fight on traditional imagery support
>
> It's true Kodak made several claims pro-digital which were mostly
> directed to their shareholders and convince them kodak will be part of
> the digital era.
> As they marketed new films recently, maybe these communication needs
> are lower.

One important saving grace for RA-4 is that it's used by many
photofinishers (both minilabs and bigger Internet/mail-order outfits) with
digital printing hardware. This means that even digital camera users often
end up with RA-4 prints. My understanding is that RA-4 is more
cost-effective than competing technologies when operated on a large enough
scale. This means that RA-4 stands a chance of surviving for quite a
while, and as long as RA-4 products for commercial photofinishers are
available, home darkroom users should be able to obtain them, albeit
perhaps not in the most convenient formats. OTOH, if the economics change,
photofinishers could abandon RA-4, which could be disastrous.

--
Rod Smith, rodsmith RemoveThis @rodsbooks.com
http://www.rodsbooks.com
Author of books on Linux, FreeBSD, and networking
 >> Stay informed about: Color printing paper 

On 2 jan, 16:30, rodsm....DeleteThis@nessus.rodsbooks.com (Rod Smith) wrote:
><snip>
> Ilford also split a while back. Ilford Harman is the UK company that makes
> B&W products. The other Ilford makes Ilfochrome, but I *THINK* that
> Ilfocolor (their RA-4 product) has been discontinued. Certainly I don't
> know of any retailer that sells it. Note that Ilfochrome is useful only
> for making prints from slides and it's ridiculously expensive (100 sheets
> of 8.5x11-inch paper costs $260 at B&H, for instance).

A couple of comments on Ilford:
- the "Ilford" brand owner owner is the swiss company (i.e. ILFORD
Imaging Switzerland GmbH) bought in 2005 by the japanese OJI papers.
- Harman Technologies Ltd (the UK Ilford) can use (I don't know the
legal term) the "Ilford" brand name for their silver-based B/W
products.
If you look at the Harman products line, you can see the "old"
products labelled "Ilford", the recent paper developers (warmtone and
cooltone) labelled as "Harman-Ilford" and their new inkjet line as
"Harman" only as they would directly compete with the swiss Ilford.

Just called the factory this morning: Ilfocolor and Ilfochrome are
still produced ...
http://www.ilford.com/en/products/ilfocolor/index.asp
http://www.ilford.com/en/products/ilfochrome/index.asp

Both products are high quality papers and thus the higher price.
That's also the reason you can't find them everywhere ...
They are also meant to fit some niches like display or transparent
materials.
Both are also (I should say mostly) used in digital printing and, as
Ilfochrome is probably the most stable color paper remaining, another
use is for archival digital printing.

><snip>
> --
> Rod Smith, rodsm....DeleteThis@rodsbooks.comhttp://www.rodsbooks.com
> Author of books on Linux, FreeBSD, and networking

Claudio Bonavolta
http://www.bonavolta.ch
 >> Stay informed about: Color printing paper